Tag: grammy awards

Four Women Producers and Engineers On Studio Challenges and Successes

Posted on by Justin Hiltner

Over the past couple of decades, the music industry has seen more women rising to become leaders in audio engineering and producing. However, even as access, acceptance, and opportunity continue to improve, women are still painfully underrepresented in these career paths, making up just five percent of engineers and producers worldwide. Over the past few weeks, I’ve talked to a handful of these remarkable women, in person at coffee shops, over the phone, and via email, about how they built their careers and the challenges they have faced in a male-dominated industry. These women are trailblazers, often without career models to follow, often the only woman in the room when they work. Their tenacity, talent, and dedication are evident, and I feel honored to share their stories.

As a musician who came up in the the bluegrass scene, the first female producer I ever knew of or worked with – and now that I think of it, the only female producer I’ve worked with who was not hired by me – is the legendary Alison Brown, virtuosic banjo player and co-owner of Compass Records. Since Brown has seen a lot of generational change over her tenure in Nashville, I thought I should start by getting her perspective.

Brown had already solidified her reputation as an instrumentalist, winning IBMA’s Banjo Player of the Year award in 1991 and touring with Alison Krauss, when she decided to start a record label along with her husband, Garry West. “We were talking about how to have a sustainable life in music,” she said, “And it was one of those napkin drawing in a coffee shop moments.”

The two were on tour in Sweden with Michelle Shocked, for whom Brown was the bandleader. “When I look back, I can see how a lot of the opportunities I had were carved out for me by other women. I was about to go to law school when Shocked asked me to be her bandleader and then we went on a world tour. At Compass, I never thought of myself as a producer, Garry was more interested in that role. But when Dale Ann Bradley was going to make an album she asked me to produce it, so I said yes, and that’s how I started producing.”

Since then, Brown has produced seven Grammy-nominated records, as well as winning a Grammy for her own song, “Leaving Cottondale,” off of her 2000 record, Fair Weather.

When asked about her production style, Brown interestingly observes that she may come at it from a traditionally female perspective, by observing and predicting other people’s feelings and needs. “Especially in the studio, you need to make people feel at ease…” she explains. “Ultimately your job is to draw the best out of the musicians. Everyone has that thing they’re afraid of having to do under the microscope, but the goal is to make the musician feel comfortable enough to reach out and hit something new.”

“Sometimes with the older guard guys, I’ll say, ‘OK, lets try to play through the chart’ and they will act like they don’t understand me. ‘What did she say? What does she want to do?’ … Like they want someone to translate it for them, because it’s coming from a woman. It’s annoying, but I know they’re acting that way because they are nervous and they don’t want to look stupid. So when I’m producing, I try to intuit those things about people, and stay focused on the end goal of making a great record.”

Engineer and producer Shani Gandhi has been in Nashville since 2011, and has been been nominated for two Grammys, winning Best Engineered Album (Non-Classical) for her work on Sierra Hull’s 2020 album, 25 Trips, which she engineered, mixed, and co-produced with Hull. Originally from Singapore, Gandhi was raised in Perth, Australia. She moved to the U.S. in 2007 to attend Ithaca College, where she received a BA in music with a concentration in sound recording technology.

Gandhi was drawn to engineering and production because of her love of music and her simultaneous dislike for performing. “As a kid, I didn’t even know that that side of music existed as a career, but once I found the Audio Engineering Society, I immersed myself in it, I was obsessed.”

Gandhi told me about her philosophy for building a community you can learn from and create with. “It’s really important to have a strong community of both mentors and peers,” she explains. “I had people that I was looking up to that were holding me to a very high standard, and then I had friends and colleagues where we were all working really hard and trading favors, and that’s how I built my freelance career. So you need really good people at all levels to make it work. You don’t want to feel like the smallest person in the room all the time, but you also need someone around to tell you, ‘I know you think what you’re doing is really cool, but it’s really not,’” she laughs.

Although she works on every stage of recording and producing, Gandhi’s great love is for mixing. “My approach is to always remember that it’s not my record, it’s the artist’s art when it comes down to it and they’re the ones who have to live with it for the rest of their lives. I do like things to be lush and tall and wide and pristine. I don’t go immediately to that tape or garage sort of sound, but I can do it. If that’s what the artists wants, that’s what the artists gets.”

Also hailing from Australia, producer and engineer Clare Reynolds – AKA Lollies – came to Nashville via LA, where she was signed as a songwriter for hip-hop producer Timbaland’s company. She essentially taught herself production and engineering on the job. “I was in a lot of big studios with big producers over those three years. It was really intense, I was almost always feeling out of my element, but I learned a lot. I would be writing the song, but also watching the others work, asking questions like, ‘Why are you using that mic?’ ‘How are you getting that sound?’ And trying to absorb everything they were doing.”

In Los Angeles, Reynolds tells me, she learned how to enter a room like a man: “I was with so many different, very big personalities that were at the top of their game and their egos were massive. They were just hyped … and if you want to be respected, you can’t go in tentative, you can’t code yourself as female. You have to act how they act, which is to say, you can’t care if other people like you. I would have this attitude like, ‘We don’t need to be friends, but we’re gonna write the best song ever.’”


Reynolds says that she will always love writing songs, but at least for now, production and engineering have taken a hold on her. “I will be forever learning,” she says, “But I do think that my experience with writing helps me approach the audio side from a very musical and song-based perspective.”

Engineer and producer Diana Walsh echoed Reynold’s sentiment about the typical energy in a recording studio. “With women being so critically underrepresented in these technical roles, it can sometimes take a minute for the gender biases in the room to dissipate,” she told me. “My focus is always on doing great work, and treating everyone in the room with the same respect I expect in return.”

Growing up in Houston, Texas, Walsh played guitar, but was always more interested in how she could record her guitar than how she could perform with it. Her mom bought her very first Shure SM57 microphone, which still gets used today in her sessions.

Walsh recorded her own music at home before heading to Belmont University to study music business, with an emphasis on production. While in school she started freelance recording for friends and classmates and after graduating, she began working at the historic RCA Studio B, where she is now the Studio Manager, as well as maintaining a busy freelance engineering schedule.

 

View this post on Instagram

 

A post shared by Diana Walsh (@dmwalshmusic)

Her engineering and production credits include Matchbox 20, Amanda Shires, JD McPherson, and Sister Sadie. Walsh believes that representation is key for getting more women into the studio: “Working at RCA B, I have the opportunity to talk to a lot of school groups. After our sessions, I often speak with the students and ask about their goals for their future in music. Through these conversations, I’ve been thrilled to hear that more and more young women are taking an interest in engineering/producing.”

Throughout my conversations with each of these women, one point they all emphasized was the importance of staying focused on making great work in the face of difficult environments. “Nobody can argue with good work,” they each told me in their own way. And as we continue to see beautiful records being made by women, I have to agree.

Photo Credit: Alison Brown by Russ Harrington; Shani Gandhi by Joshua Black Wilkins.

WATCH: Molly Tuttle & Golden Highway Target Their “Next Rodeo”

Posted on by Justin Hiltner

The queen returns and she’s kicking ass and taking names. Molly Tuttle’s new video for the single “Next Rodeo” debuted last week, and with it comes an album announcement from the multi-IBMA-Award and Grammy-winning flatpicker extraordinaire.

A film by Edgar Evin, the “Next Rodeo” video finds Molly & Golden Highway (comprised of Bronwyn Keith-Hynes on fiddle, Dominick Leslie on mandolin, Kyle Tuttle on banjo, Shelby Means on bass, and Jordan Perlsan on drums) getting even with a cheating ex — complete with kidnapping, duct tape, and a super-spicy helping of “Goodbye Earl” vibes. 

Tuttle’s new album, City of Gold, drops on July 21 with Nonesuch Records. Each track was co-written with Old Crow Medicine Show’s Ketch Secor and co-produced with bluegrass legend Jerry Douglas. 

“When I was a kid we took a field trip to Coloma, California, to learn about the gold rush,” Tuttle said in a statement, revealing the inspiration behind the record. “I’ll never forget the dusty hills and the grizzled old miner who showed us the gold nugget around his neck—just like gold fever, music has always captivated me and driven me to great lengths to explore its depths.” 

Songs include spellbinding tales about gold miners, fortune tellers, love and loss and a fast-changing world — as well as a reimagining of Alice in Wonderland set in the backwoods of Kentucky. City of Gold is a follow-up to 2022’s Crooked Tree, a beloved LP that won the Grammy Award for Best Bluegrass Album. Tuttle is also the first woman to win the IBMA’s Guitar Player of the Year award and a member of the First Ladies of Bluegrass — so you won’t want to miss her new release.

Photo Credit: Chelsea Rochelle

Alison Brown: Record Label Founder and Bluegrass “Lifer”

Posted on by Justin Hiltner

When a craftsman pauses to reflect, students of all skill levels benefit from the lesson. Alison Brown’s latest album, On Banjo, released May 5 on Compass Records and is a masterclass; it’s also a study on where the instrument has been and where it’s going.

Brown is a Compass co-founder and a GRAMMY Award-winning artist and producer. A self-described “lifer” in the bluegrass community and an IBMA “First Lady of Bluegrass,” she eagerly explores what the five-stringed instrument can do outside typical genre parameters. The new record is packed with star-studded duets with comedian Steve Martin, mandolin player and fellow First Lady of Bluegrass Sierra Hull, and fiddle legend Stuart Duncan.

The result is a varied, rich track list we couldn’t wait to ask Brown about.

BGS: Let’s walk through some of the tracks and collaborations on On Banjo. What kind of music inspired the duet with Anat Cohen?

AB: Anat Cohen is a clarinetist; she was born in Israel and lives in New York, but she’s well-known in jazz circles for Brazilian choro. I actually watched lots of videos of Anat on YouTube.

I reached out. I said “I know we don’t know each other, but would you consider doing this?”

What’s it like working with a famous comedian like Steve Martin in a musical context?

I’ve had the good fortune to go out and do some shows with him and Martin Short. There’s inevitably some time to jam in the dressing room, so it’s fun to play with Steve in that context, too.

Steve’s a great banjo player with a really beautiful touch and a delicate, sweet tone. He loves playing in double C tuning. Banjo players usually tune to a G, but you can drop the fourth string to a C and tune the second [string] up to a C. It’s an old tuning that clawhammer guys use a lot.

The way “Foggy Mountain Breaking,” came about is I wrote the A section. It was during the pandemic. I asked Steve, “Do you wanna write a B part?” He sent me a perfect B section 24 hours later. We figured out a bridge together. It’s named after a lyric in a John Hartford song and is obviously a riff on “Foggy Mountain Breakdown.”

How does it feel to work with younger bluegrass talents like Sierra Hull? Is it gratifying to have a feminine duo on that track?

I wrote that tune hoping Sierra would be up for learning and recording it with me. I’m a huge fan of her mandolin playing; she’s another one with such a delicate touch. Her fingers just really dance over the fingerboard.

It required her to play every fret on the first string of the mandolin and she did it flawlessly. She said she’d never had a chance to work on such complicated music with another woman. So it’s a really special thing. It’s always a delight to play with Sierra, but to do a duet with her was like chocolate and more chocolate.

How do you balance two strong, independent main instruments like banjo and fiddle together, such as with Stuart Duncan?

Banjo and fiddle are just so complementary. They say a banjo and fiddle make a band, and they do.

I’ve known Stuart since he was 11 and I was 12. We go way back. And on this tune I want to give a tip of the hat to Byron Berline and John Hickman. Growing up in Southern California when we did in the ’70s, those two were the guys that everybody worshiped at the feet of. I wanted to try and capture some of that spirit, and I wanted to do it with Stuart.

Who is this album for, and what do you hope listeners take away from it?

That’s the existential question of the banjo player. And it is a bit of a challenge when you take the five-string banjo and go somewhere else with it. Earl Scruggs perpetuated a style and brought it to the masses that was just so electric. Most people think that’s all the banjo does and they don’t worry about its history before that. There’s a lot of voices inside the instrument; the bluegrass one has become the loudest one most recently.

It’s so interesting because at the beginning of the 1800s the banjo was found on plantations. Then white people appropriated that music in minstrel shows, performing in blackface. It’s deep in terms of what it says about our history and America’s original sin.
It went from being a Black instrument to being a white lady’s instrument. The Black voice of the instrument and the female voice of the instrument were both disenfranchised. There are gorgeous old photos of women in the 1890s holding banjos, and there were female banjo orchestras. I’m excited to see that re-emerging.

You started Compass Records with Garry West almost three decades ago. What’s on the horizon, and what are your goals?

All the labels were run by business people, not musicians. We said, “Why can’t musicians run a label for other artists?”

The other part is really wanting to build a label that can have a cultural impact and Garry and I are both invested in roots music. I’ve been a member of the bluegrass community since about 10 years old. I’m a lifer. The whole economy of the record business has been turned upside down and stirred and shaken eight times. We want to make sure this music not only survives but thrives into the future.

You mentioned growing up in SoCal. How is bluegrass there different from Appalachia?

There would be Eagles’ songs in set lists. It was wide open. When I first came east with Stuart and his dad, we drove around and did the festivals in 1978 or so, but it was rooted in the first generation bands’ repertoire.

On that trip we entered a band contest in Oklahoma and we played something we learned from a Richard Green record. It was a funky fiddle thing in E. I remember somebody coming up afterwards and saying “We don’t appreciate you knocking the music.”

What did you learn while making On Banjo?

The deep dive to find new melodies, and that process of discovery of the instrument, is the process of self-discovery. You get to the end and it teaches you something new about yourself.

Photo Credit: Russ Harrington

Photos: AmericanaFest Pre-Grammy Salute to Lucinda Williams

Posted on by Justin Hiltner

Few artists are more associated with Americana music than Lucinda Williams, even as her incredible career is hard to categorize. Her Grammy wins range from Best Country Song (“Passionate Kisses”) to Best Contemporary Folk Album  (Car Wheels on a Gravel Road) to Best Female Rock Vocal Performance (“Get Right With God”). Just a few days following her 70th birthday, the Americana Music Association hosted an impressive all-star tribute concert at the fabled Troubadour club in Los Angeles on Saturday, February 4. The intimate performances underscored Williams’ versatility as a songwriter, with each of the performers putting their own personal stamp on her songs without ever losing the straightforward and often sensual lyricism that she’s known for.

Enjoy photos from the AMERICANAFEST Pre-Grammy Salute to Lucinda Williams:

All Photos: Erika Goldring, Courtesy of the Americana Music Association.

Writing for ‘The Woman King,’ Jessy Wilson Earns Her First Grammy Nod

Posted on by Editor

Such words as eclectic, diverse or versatile are hardly adequate to describe the scope and mastery of singer-songwriter Jessy Wilson’s talents. Her career background ranges from singing in Off-Broadway productions and being a backup vocalist for John Legend and Alicia Keys, to receiving her first-ever Grammy nomination in late 2022 for co-writing “Keep Rising (The Woman King),” which she recorded for the closing credits of the film The Woman King.

That versatility as a performer is also reflected in the creative fire and energy that’s led to Wilson getting involved with sculpture and visual art, doing some acting, and in general displaying such a broad and wide-ranging approach that she’s sometimes encountered difficulty in an industry most comfortable with categorization.

“Well, no one knows for sure what might or might not hamper or restrict them starting out, or in terms of their career evolution,” Wilson tells the Bluegrass Situation. “I recognize that in terms of marketing, yes, there’s a tendency towards wanting artists who do fit into whatever category they feel might be commercially strongest. But for myself, what drives me as an artist is the creative process, and the thrill that I get from different songs, from different experiences, from different kinds of music. I can’t let myself worry about the whole issue of categorization, and it’s not really something that’s ever concerned me.”

Wilson grew up in Brooklyn hearing the sounds of classic soul and early hip-hop. After moving to Nashville in 2013, she became enchanted with the sounds of the South: more soul, as well as gospel, blues, and country. Wilson soon began attracting national attention while part of the duo Muddy Magnolias. A standout performance at the 2014 CMA Music Festival got widespread praise and coverage from Rolling Stone. The group was later signed by Third Generation Records and released the album Broken People in 2016, but what looked like a promising path didn’t materialize as the duo subsequently disbanded. After a period that included living in East Nashville and working in the industry via a publishing deal, Wilson’s now enjoying a breakout period as a recording artist.

A key indicator of that success is the Grammy nomination, shared with featured guest Angélique Kidjo, in the category of Best Song Written for Visual Media. Wilson wrote “Keep Rising” after the miscarriage of her son. The unreleased track found its way to the filmmakers behind The Woman King, the outstanding historical drama starring Viola Davis and directed by Gina-Prince Bythewood. “The producers had heard a demo of the song and really loved it,” Wilson explained. “Gina Prince-Bythewood personally asked me about getting the song in the film. We made some changes and additions, finished it, gave it to them, and I guess you can say the rest is history.”

In addition to the Grammy nomination, Wilson is still riding the wave of critical adulation from her 2019 LP Phase, which was recorded with and produced by ace Black Keys drummer Patrick Carney. “That experience working with Patrick is by far the best I’ve ever had in terms of songwriting, putting together a record and really putting my voice forward in the best way,” Wilson continued. “At first we just would kind of go over things and try out a couple of items, but towards the end we were working on the album every day. It was concentrated, intense and very productive. I’m really happy with how it turned out and I think it’s the best and most complete release I’ve done to date.”

Phase‘s lead single was “Love & Sophistication,” a lyrically intriguing tune that was released along with a lyric video spiced with French captions. While the simplistic way to assess it was as a straightforward love song, it was indeed a smarter work. Combining a vintage R&B track with a shimmering and expressive lead vocal, it provided a strong introduction for the overall LP.

Conceptually, much of the material leans heavily toward autobiographical reflection, though certainly Wilson demonstrates on such tunes as “Cold in the South” a fiery, defiant and blistering sensibility in discussing exactly what type of experiences a Black woman might encounter on any particular occasion or evening in that region. Still, the lyrical tone is mostly upbeat, with such numbers as “LZ Night” or “waiting on…” narrating the ongoing quest fueled by her multiple creative inspirations. There is also a sensual side to her sound, which is brilliantly displayed with the sizzling number “Oh Baby.”

Jessy Wilson’s had a number of amazing collaborative experiences, many of which she credits to her time with John Legend. “He was such an important person in my life and in my artistic development,” Wilson added. “I learned so much from watching him on stage, watching him in the studio, writing with him. He allowed me maximum freedom and gave the chance to really find my way and find my voice. He was not only a mentor but a great friend and influence.”

She directly links two other memorable stints to that period. These were writing songs with a pair of distinctly different performers: Faith Hill and Kanye West. “Both of those times it was because John Legend was kind enough to invite me into the session with him. With Faith, we bonded over our mutual love of Aretha Franklin. After the day was over she took me to her home and in her music room showed me these portraits she’d taken with Aretha. The three of us also sat around and sang Aretha tunes. With Kanye, he was remarkably creative and supportive. He didn’t focus on anything except the music. He would go around the room and ask everyone what did they think about this and that. My time spent with him was very enjoyable.”

In addition, Wilson credits working with Alicia Keys, which came shortly after her graduation from high school, as a vital ingredient in shaping her career. “I was really green when I started with Alicia,” Wilson said. “I had done some musical theater and I had once gone to Japan, but I had never really been on that kind of a world tour, been exposed to what it’s like being on a tour of that magnitude, and how a featured artist and performer handles the stage. I learned so much from my time with her.”

While the biggest upcoming date for Wilson is certainly the Grammys next month, she is eagerly looking forward to the remainder of the year. “My biggest plans are to do as many collaborations as I can this year with the people whose music has meant the most to me,” Wilson concluded. “I’ve got songs that I want to share, and I also plan to do some writing for film and television. In addition, we’re looking to move back to East Nashville this spring, so that’s another thing on the horizon. I’m really excited about this year, excited about the possibilities, and of course excited, happy and grateful about the nomination, no matter how it turns out.”

Photo Credit: Mary Caroline Russell

Janis Ian Shines on Grammy-Nominated Final Album, ‘Light at the End of the Line’

Posted on by Editor

That old adage about God laughing at the plans of meager humans hit home in bittersweet fashion for Janis Ian. The legendary singer-songwriter was in the midst of an incredible victory lap: Her stunning studio album The Light at the End of the Line, released early in 2022, received critical accolades, nabbed a Grammy nomination for Best Folk Album, and ushered in a Lifetime Achievement Award from Folk Alliance International. She had begun a final tour when a spring bout of laryngitis led to a diagnosis of vocal fold scarring, a condition that would make live performances impossible and forced the cancellation of her remaining tour dates.

When Ian spoke to BGS last month, her speaking voice was clear and cheerful, even when recounting the tough break mentioned above. She had plenty of reasons for hope and happiness anyway, as she talked about the recording of and response to The Light at the End of the Line, a newly remastered CD version of her classic 1975 album Between the Lines, and other memories of her monumental career in music.

BGS: First of all, how are you feeling, with regard to your vocal cord injury?

Janis Ian: It’s a little weird. I wouldn’t have expected that I’d be forced to stop. The plan was always that I would go on and sing until May 31, 2023, and then close out with a big concert in Dublin, have all my friends join me for a documentary they’re making about me, and then do one-offs with my friends. To suddenly not be able to do any of that, I’m still in shock, but I’m getting through.

Well, if The Light at the End of the Line is your last album, you certainly went out on a high note. There is such ease about the record and a sense of grace.

I love to hear that. A sense of grace.

Did it feel that easy making it, or was there pressure knowing that it was the last album?

I didn’t think about it being the last album until I started looking at the list of songs and realized that it had been 15 years since the last one. I kept a whiteboard of songs that I thought were really good, that lived up to the mark. One day I looked at it, and I added one song and I thought, “All I’m missing is the title song now.” From there, this one probably fell into place more easily than anything I’ve ever done.

I put off writing the title song as long as I could because I didn’t want to write a farewell song. And I wanted to walk that thin line between saying thank you and being maudlin. The song was in scraps of paper all over the house. My wife kept going around the house picking them up worried that I would throw them out. The idea for the bridge was on the back of a paper plate. I wrote it down and she kept saying, “Please don’t eat off this now.” When I looked up, I had an album of first-take vocals. So that feels really good too. Given what’s happened to my voice, it’s nice to know that at that point, the first take was the final take.

I’ve read in other interviews that you normally don’t set out to write a song with a predetermined topic in mind.

Pretty rare.

But because you intended this to be your last record, were there certain topics that you wanted to hit?

I felt like it was important to step out. It was important to be brave. It was important to have a song like “Resist” on there. It was also important to be hopeful and have something like “Better Times Will Come.” I really wanted to walk the thin line between those two, between everything has got to start changing and yet it’s hopeful.

You mentioned “Resist,” and to me, the honesty and fearlessness of that song harken back to “Society’s Child.” I was looking up videos of you performing it back when it was released. In one, you’re introduced by Leonard Bernstein, who gushes over the brilliance of the song. In another, it’s on The Smothers Brothers Show and they’re joined by Jimmy Durante in introducing it! Can you wrap your head around the longevity you’ve had in the music world, from that song being released in 1966 to a Grammy nomination in 2022?

You know, I went to my throat doctor for a follow-up yesterday, and he said to me, “58 years is an incredible run. Most artists, it’s 15 years until their voice goes.” I thought about that and the line that I always heard from fans on tour was “Gosh, you sound just like you’ve always sounded.”

How much has the reaction to the album meant to you, not just from critics, the Folk Alliance, and the Grammys, but also from fans?

I have a pretty personal relationship with my fans. I learned after “Society’s Child” not to be afraid of them. Up until COVID, I stayed after every show to sign and to meet people. I always emphasized you don’t have to buy anything to say hello or to get a hug. And I really saw what songs like “At Seventeen” meant to them. It’s very moving. So, to put out something like this and have the fans rooting for me, it’s pretty great. I remember on Facebook when I did the announcement about canceling the tour, it killed me. We were all set, and there I was saying there’s not going to be a tour and there aren’t going to be makeup dates. When I announced it, I expected blowback. I expected people to be annoyed. I was shocked. I had 10,000 positive responses.

A lot of those fans have followed you through the years, with your music accompanying them in different stages of their life. Was that the thought process behind including a song like “A Light at the End of the Line,” to address yet another stage?

The interesting thing about that song and “I’m Still Standing” is that I thought those songs were for people 50 and over, people of my generation. The most feedback I’ve gotten has been from people 15 to 25 years old. The first time I sang “I’m Still Standing” was for two other songwriters aged 19 and 20. And the woman started crying. I said, “You can’t possibly relate to this.” She said, “This is the story of my life. You just told what I’ve been going through.” There’s a lot to be said, as a writer, for keeping in mind that you don’t know what you’re talking about. (laughing)

Switching gears to the reissue of Between the Lines, that album possesses such variety in terms of musical styles. It is far from a typical “singer-songwriter” record in that respect. How important was it to be able to put out a remastered version that captures those original sounds?

I got control of the record everywhere but North America. I started talking to Sony and basically said, “You’ve been using the same thing that you had out in 1983. Please let me go in and remaster. I’ll pay for it. Give me permission.” That was part of why I brought in Brooks Arthur. (Arthur passed away this past October after working on the reissue.) He was the original producer/engineer. At the time he was running Adam Sandler’s music business. Bringing in Brooks was like saying, “I’m not throwing it out. I’m not getting rid of what was there.” But I wanted to know what would have happened if Brooks had worked with this kind of equipment. And that’s what we did.

You can’t take away that it was recorded in 914 Studios (in Blauvelt, New York) that was held together with spit and glue. The best kind of studios are. They’re the least fancy. But you could take advantage of things like being able to remember mixes. It was great to be able to remaster it and feel like finally the CD was commensurate with what the album had been.

Did you feel at that time you were pushing boundaries with a radio song like “At Seventeen,” and did anyone ever try to rein that in for commercial reasons?

I think by then that I didn’t really care what anybody else thought. (laughing) There was pressure on it. I threw my then-manager out of the session because she kept saying that I was destroying a potential hit. Brooks and I had absolute faith in the song and so did every musician who played it. There was some pressure from the record company to drop the second verse and make it a three-minute song. But instead, Brooks did that brilliant little Bucky Pizzarelli guitar lick and made it a single.

Do you remember writing that opening line “I learned the truth at seventeen,” and did you immediately feel like you had something special?

Absolutely. That was one of maybe three songs in my life where I thought, “I think I’ve written a radio-friendly song.” That’s not my forte. People like Diane Warren, they do that without even thinking. It’s a real talent that I don’t happen to have. But I knew from that first line that I was onto something special. It was really scary. I didn’t want to blow it.

You plan to focus your artistic impulses on other endeavors besides music, but what happens if something pops into your head and heart and wants to be a song?

Fortunately for me, I notate. There’s still always music running in my head. That hasn’t changed. I could probably limp through a demo and make myself understood enough to send it to another artist. It’s just I can’t hold my pitch for an extended period, which means I can’t do two or three songs in a row. And my voice gets gravelly without warning. At that point, I’m Tom Waits. OK, there are worse things to be.

Is there one aspect of your career of which you’re the proudest?

That’s a good question. I think recognition from other artists. Because really, that’s the mark you try to hit. Leonard Cohen loved my work. And Leonard is the mark that you’re trying to hit if you’re me as a songwriter. Ella Fitzgerald thought I was a great singer. That’s a mark you try to hit. The people who I work with and whose records I grew up with, people like Joan Baez. Joan never goes anywhere these days but she came to my last show in Berkeley. She came backstage and said, “So you’re really doing it?” And I said, “Yep, this is the last tour.” That somebody like Joan cared enough to call me when she heard that I was having vocal problems, that’s meaningful to me.

And that’s not to denigrate the fans, because clearly they’ve meant a great deal to me and they’ve been really good to me and understanding. It’s the fans that raised all that money, $1.3 million, for the Pearl Foundation (a charity Ian founded with her wife Patricia Snyder) because I couldn’t raise all that on my own. But for me, the highlights are the fun I’ve had with other performers. Playing guitar, playing lead guitar with somebody like Tommy Emmanuel. Walking on stage with somebody like Chet Atkins and Michael Hedges. Those are amazing memories.

Thanks so much, Janis. I have to say I’ve never done an interview that encompassed both Leonard Bernstein and Adam Sandler.

That’s a good span! (laughing)

Photo Credit: Niall Fennessy

After 100 Shows, Madison Cunningham Broke Through Barrier of Stage Fright

Posted on by Editor

Madison Cunningham isn’t afraid to open up. Her latest album, Revealer, finds the singer-songwriter, well, revealing glimpses into her innermost thoughts, whether she’s musing on the push-pull of big dreams and life on the road in “All I’ve Ever Known” or grappling with mistakes on acclaimed single “Hospital.”

“What’s fun about writing is when you get to the place where you can make yourself laugh, or you’re excited about what’s happening,” she says. Lately, there’s a lot to be excited about. Revealer has earned the 26-year-old California native two Grammy nominations: one under Best Roots Performance for album track “Life According to Raechel,” and one for Best Folk Album. And while she’s long been a regular presence on big stages (BGS fans may recognize her from appearances on Chris Thile’s Live from Here as early as 2017), Cunningham continues to reach new audiences with wide-spanning tour dates and late-night appearances on shows like The Late Late Show, Jimmy Kimmel Live, and The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.

Even when she’s bearing vulnerable parts of herself with deeply confessional lyrics, Cunningham seems like a natural on the stage. But despite a nearly lifelong devotion to songwriting and guitar, sharing her work with the world hasn’t always come easy.

“A lot of my life I felt like, as a performer, I wasn’t fully representing myself because of my nerves,” she admits. Stage fright kept her from performing for much of her adolescence, and the confident singer we see today had to work hard to overcome her own reservations. “I am proud of the live music element to what we accomplished in the last year,” she adds. “I mean, that’s most of what I did in 2022—playing shows. My band and I put a lot of time and effort into making these songs translate to a live setting.”

After playing an even one hundred shows in 2022, Cunningham unlocked a new kind of conviction on stage—one that makes the future for this young talent all the more exciting. “I worked on things that I felt like I got better at—stage presence and engaging with an audience—and my voice sounded comfortable,” she says. “I’ve always been very hard on myself for those things, and this time I felt like I broke through some barriers.”

BGS caught up with Cunningham, our BGS Artist of the Month for January, about her musical upbringing, her broad definition of folk music, and the careful balance between believing in yourself and inviting others on your creative journey—both in the studio and on the stage.

BGS: What are your first memories with music?

Cunningham: Apparently, as a kid I really wanted to play guitar at around 4 years old. I didn’t actually start playing until I was 7 and that’s when I can remember falling in love with the guitar. My dad would teach me all the chords that he knew at the pace that I was able to keep up. And then, it grew. I started taking piano lessons but I just kept getting drawn back to guitar. Those are probably my earliest memories, my dad playing and me wanting to be able to join in with him.

How did that evolve into a career as a performer?

It took a long time because I was really shy. I had a terrible case of stage fright, starting when I was a kid. Even though there was a love for it that was brewing behind the scenes, I never pictured myself doing it in front of people. So, that took a really, really long time for me to get over. I was probably 12 when I started really singing from the stage, but there was a whole new phase when I started playing my own music; I was deathly afraid to play it in front of people. I was 17 or 18 when I started to work through that and get over it. All I really knew is I loved writing songs.

You’ve been writing songs for a long time, but you’ve also found new fans through the covers you released during the height of the pandemic. What value did you find in recording music from other artists and songwriters?

It broke down certain barriers that I had for myself as a songwriter. That’s what’s so important about keeping your mind and your heart open to music that challenges you and inspires you. It opens up new ways for you to express yourself and new ways of playing and thinking about music. That’s what those covers were for me: They were linchpin artists who taught me about what it was that I loved about music. Being able to actually step inside of those songs and play them for myself taught me more about what I loved about songwriting in general, and how I wanted my songs to live on beyond myself and the moment in which they were created.

“All I’ve Ever Known” is the first song on the album, and you’ve said it was the first one you wrote for the album. How did the production come together?

That’s the one song on the album where I played everything. But initially the concept of the record was to do that for every song. Things changed; I didn’t want to be stuck in my own echo chamber of ideas and I wanted someone else to bring their unexpected artistry to this. But for whatever reason, with that song, I kept trying to redo it and invite some of my favorite musicians on it, but it just kept pulling the song in a direction that was not how it started and not where it was supposed to end. I think things should always be able to be redirected, and I’m a huge fan of course-correcting, but it felt like the spirit of the song lived in this version that was created by me. So, I left it. I added the production elements that I felt would elevate it. I’d let it sit for a little bit. At one point, I’d added too much and had to go back and turn some things off. [Laughs] But the production of that song was really just an element of me following my curiosity and having the most fun doing it.

You’re nominated for Best Roots Performance for “Life According to Raechel.” But you’ve said that you were actually deeply afraid to record that song. Why?

I was afraid that I was going to complicate it—not be brave enough to let it be the simplistic song that it was. I had recorded a version of it at home that was very much a demo, and we were going to enhance the quality and redo it and add strings. To find the balance between sincerity and theater can be really difficult, but I felt like the song needed both. Tyler Chester, who produced that song, never let me try to get too impressive with it. He kind of slapped my hand if I wanted to add something that was too frivolous or add anything that took away or pulled against the narrative of the song. A song like that is so personal. I was afraid that I would saturate it with sappiness. It was kind of on this tightrope.

The song is about losing your grandmother. Is there anything you wish she could witness about your journey since you wrote it?

I think everybody’s biggest fear, when you think about death and when you think about leaving, is feeling like nobody’s going to care, or that people will soon forget, or that everything that you worked for in your life is a loss. I would love her to see that a story about her in a song has seemingly helped other people through their own versions of grief. I think that would’ve been an impactful thing for her to see—maybe even a bit of closure. Who knows? I don’t know where she is now. Does she even need closure in any way? I don’t know. These are all questions that none of us could ever have the real answers to. But I find it fascinating that death is such a universal reality, but still it’s this massive mystery.

Revealer is nominated for Best Folk Album, but it’s clear that your music is influenced by so much more than just one genre. What elements of folk do you feel have most influenced your music?

Folk music is at the heart of the way we view songwriting today. Folk, to me, is almost just another word for singer-songwriter. The great mothers and fathers of folk like Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan… all of those people brought to the table some real lyrical awakening. They put so much of themselves into the songs. The veil between their emotions and their lyrics was completely translucent. The melody component in folk, too, is incredibly inspiring to me. But folk is just a small word for a very, very large genre packed with so many different ideas. And people have taken it in so many different directions. I’ve been excited about a lot of it.

You struggled with stage fright in the beginning. If you could go back and tell yourself one thing, what would it be?

Probably to not worry so much about the rules around music, or the rules that people set in place. But sometimes, I would like her to come and give me advice, because there was so much less that I was thinking about back then. So much comes into play as you get older, as you’re more aware of the way that life works. I feel like the sort of oblivion, the ignorance that I got to live in at that time was so good for art.

Photo Credit: Claire Marie Vogel

Del in December: BGS Celebrates a True Bluegrass Legend All Week Long

Posted on by Editor

With a welcoming smile and an incredibly expressive tenor voice, Del McCoury has enchanted audiences since the 1960s. He’s that rare entertainer who’s both confident and humble, giving him the ability to fit in anywhere from bluegrass festivals to Bonnaroo. Every time we’ve been able to spend time with Del over the years, it’s been a privilege. In a small gesture of gratitude, we celebrate his artistic endeavors this week in a series we’re calling Del in December.

In the days ahead, look for a decade-by-decade recap of McCoury’s exceptional life and career written by North Carolina journalist David Menconi. We’ll also share one of our favorite interviews with Del about his album, Almost Proud, which just received a Grammy nomination. In addition, there’s an exclusive holiday video coming up, as well as a testimonial from Del’s inner circle who tell us what he’s really like as a boss, a father, and a friend. (No surprise: He’s a great guy!)

We’ve been fortunate to share many of Del McCoury’s most recent collaborations on BGS, including his recordings with Vince Gill, Junior Sisk, and Billy Strings. We even got an invitation to his 80th birthday party at the Grand Ole Opry. Perhaps our favorite moment, though, is this special video from The Bluegrass Situation archives of McCoury teaming up with fellow bluegrass legend Sam Bush. Stick around ’til the end and check out Del’s banjo pickin’ skills, too!

Photo Credit: Daniel Jackson

The Infamous Stringdusters’ Travis Book and Jeremy Garrett Take the Long View

Posted on by Editor

Now in their 17th year, the Infamous Stringdusters have established themselves as one of the most prominent and prolific bands in modern bluegrass. Asked if he ever thought the Stringdusters would be together that long, bassist Travis Book candidly replies, “Yes. That was the plan when we started the band, not to be side guys working for someone else or to go it alone. If we needed to, any of us could be a bandleader at this point. When we started, our plan was to do this for as long as we could. Looking at each other, we all wanted this group to keep making music together for 30 or 40 years. I hope that’s not conceited or hubris to say.”

Fiddle player Jeremy Garrett adds, “I’ve been in side bands and seen the writing on the wall as to how far you can go that way, as opposed to taking the risk of taking the leap yourself. Many struggle and have difficulty with that. Every time I think about it, I’m glad we took the risk. It’s a big step to believe in yourself enough to do that, and I feel lucky that we realized that early on. We’ve all spent a long time in the trenches, building it up. Looking back, we have an awesome band and business, and we still love each other. We’re having the time of our lives out here.”

The band’s musical passion and mutual respect are evident on their new album, Toward the Fray, and indeed throughout their catalog. In April, they’ll head to Las Vegas where A Tribute to Bill Monroe is nominated for a Grammy Award in the Best Bluegrass Album category. (They won their first Grammy for their 2017 project, Laws of Gravity.) BGS caught up with the Stringdusters — our Artist of the Month for March — for a series of three conversations on the road. Here is part two with Book and Garrett, who each wrote multiple songs for Toward the Fray.

Editor’s Note: Read our BGS Artist of the Month interview with Andy Hall and Andy Falco.

BGS: So you’re up for another Grammy, and of course you’re going, right?

Travis Book: We are. When they rescheduled it to April in Las Vegas, that just so happened to be the weekend we’ll be at Wondergrass. We have Sunday off and it’s within driving distance, so we’ll bus down there. We went the first two times, too. Even though it’s a massive undertaking and not cheap, you’ve got to go. We make it a priority. It can be hard for people who aren’t intimately involved with the music industry to understand what we’re doing. You know, aunts or uncles thinking “our nephew and his little bluegrass band.” Winning a Grammy definitely helped them have a better perspective on us having some success. It especially made my dad happy. He’s a hardcore music fan, subscribes to the magazines. He’s the one who turned me onto Pearl Jam and Radiohead. He was happier about it than anybody.

Were you into alternative rock first, before bluegrass?

Book: That and classic rock — Led Zeppelin, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd. That was the music that really got me, although I remember wearing out Red Hot Chili Peppers’ Blood Sugar Sex Magik in middle school. Getting from there to bluegrass wasn’t that complicated. I was into Grateful Dead and Phish when I ran into some guys in a garage jam band that needed a bass player. When that ended, the guitar player asked if I’d ever played bluegrass. He was from Georgia, turned me on to Yonder Mountain String Band, Old and In the Way. We started jamming on bluegrass and the harmony singing is what really got me into it.

I grew up singing hymns with my parents, and those three-part harmonies really resonated as fundamental. Singing is my jam, it’s why I got into music in the first place, and singing harmonies is what drew me in. It was not long until bluegrass was all I wanted to do, go to bluegrass and folk festivals. I’d go to the college library and print off pages and pages of traditional bluegrass lyrics. Bluegrass Album Band, I learned all that stuff. I thought it was so cool that you could go anywhere with acoustic instruments, no electricity required, and have this massive shared lexicon you could play with people.

On the new album, your song “Pearl of Carolina” is particularly good.

Book: I co-wrote that with Jon Weisberger, my neighbor in Brevard, North Carolina. The hook to that song came from me writing a script for my show, Travis Book Happy Hour, which livestreams from the Grey Eagle in Asheville. I’d say it’s Late Night meets eTown. I was trying to write an introduction: “Live from Asheville, it’s BLANK of Carolina.” I was wondering what should go there, “pearl” came to mind and then I thought, “That should be a song.” The melody and chord change came to me while I was riding my bike, and I sang that into my phone. It felt a little “country” to me and I did not have the guts to finish it. That descending chord change seemed a little down the middle. The main thing Jon helped with was making sure I didn’t dilute it and miss the opportunity to write it right. He really kept me on track. It’s a song that feels like it wrote itself.

Jeremy, you have side-hustle projects, too — a new solo record, right?

Jeremy Garrett: Yep, River Wild. Music abounds. It’s a really good time right now, music flowing out of everyone. I’m stoked to be coming out of the pandemic with great new songs and tunes to play. There’s the Stringdusters album, and my record is out March 25. We can’t stop creating, writing about things in our world. As a musician and aspiring poet, I want to put things into words and share them.

Since you’re writing material for both the group and your own thing, how do you know where a song should go?

Garrett: There’s definitely a Stringdusters flavor, to where I can usually tell if something will be a Stringdusters song right away. Not always, I do get surprised sometimes. When we do the show-and-tell song-sharing, I’ll keep one wildcard song I throw out to see what everyone thinks and sometimes that’s the one that catches their ears. A lot of times I know the spice level needed to bring to the Stringdusters pot — a certain energy that will go over good live. That’s our MO, bringing the live show in the hottest way we can.

Travis, you mentioned that “Pearl of Carolina” initially felt too country. Another of your songs here, “I’m Not Alone,” seems like it could also pass for country.

Book: I try to stay out of my own way with that stuff. I remember Paul McCartney saying about early Beatles songs, “We didn’t write them to be memorable, we wrote them that way because we had to remember ’em ourselves.” There’s something to be said for songs that stick with you and are memorable. I can come up with crazy ideas, but the stuff that keeps running around in my head days later, that’s when I know I’m onto something. The older I get, the less afraid I am about writing stuff that’s straightforward. You want to make music that’s quality and creative, complex, interesting. But it’s better if it resonates and sticks, becomes a part of lives and minds.

All three songs I wrote for this album are in that vein. “Pearl of Carolina” is a little more complicated, but “I’m Not Alone” is just that one-line chorus. The first three lines are the same melody, the third line I reharmonize; change the chord structure, then the last line the lead drops down to something very similar to the baritone part from the first two lines. It’s such a simple idea, but it still knocks me on my ass when I listen. It makes the chorus pop right out. The old me might have thought it was too sappy or not complicated enough. I feel fortunate to have grown up enough to get past that. It seems so simple, but essential, like a mantra.

Beyond who plays what instrument, how would you summarize each person’s role in the Stringdusters?

Garrett: I think we are that rare democracy among bands. Everyone has their individual talents, things they’re better suited for. But I think we’re all into the big picture. That’s something we often discuss all together, vibing on the same wavelength about the band’s trajectory, how to create records and unify messages with five different guys. There are issues where we disagree, but we almost never have to vote on it. We just talk it out and eventually come around to being of the same mind about it almost all the time. We’re lucky that way. Panda (banjo player Chris Pandolfi) is very technically minded, handles a lot of the business, and Travis is a great booking agent, keeps an eye on the schedule because he knows how to make that flow. We hope to all bring something to the table. It’s always been that way.

Book: Everyone can kind of choose their level of engagement. We’re all allowed to integrate and contribute however we want. Business, music, interpersonal stuff all continues to move along and different people are engaged with different parts at different levels. But every year, we grow more alike. Every tour, we’re more on the same page. Ten years ago, there were a lot more differences of opinion than there are now. To me, the decision-making on goal-setting, recording, the way to approach shows and everybody’s role musically is all so much easier now than a decade ago.

Garrett: Even a decade ago, it was already better than most bands. We’ve always been lucky for sure.

Book: A major priority is keeping everyone involved and equal and on the same page to make sure everyone gets what they need out of this. Everyone has an equal say and there’s no bandleader. That can make it challenging to be a fan. So much is going on and everybody gets a chance to lead. If you just want to be fed the same singer doing the same type of songs all night, we’re maybe not the band for you. It’s highly dynamic. Any given song or even moment, a different guy can be the leader. That’s part of what keeps us interesting as a band — everybody getting a chance to take the reins, get support and then on to the next thing. We’re Jeremy’s backing band during his solo, then mine when I’m singing the hook. Moment to moment, everyone is fully supported.

Want to win tickets to see the Infamous Stringdusters at the Echoplex in Los Angeles? Enter our ticket giveaway.

Photo Credit: Jay Strausser Visuals

Yola Chooses to Stand For Herself, But She’s Always Looking for Big Ol’ Softies

Posted on by Editor

Speaking to Yola over Zoom is way more fun than a video call has any right to be. From the time she dials in from the UK, she’s ready to chat. Good thing, because there’s a lot to talk about. About a week earlier, she picked up two Grammy nominations in the American Roots Music category of Best American Roots Song (“Diamond Studded Shoes”) and Best Americana Album (Stand For Myself), and she’s clearly still exhilarated by it.

“It’s very hard for it to even land because it feels really super surreal,” she says. “I don’t know how else to describe it. I’m endlessly grateful to the work that everyone puts in to get me to this point, and honestly, the faith that people have to let me lead at all. I wasn’t always in positions like that, ones that would let me lead.”

She’s speaking of a different kind of leadership style than, say, former British Prime Minister Theresa May, whose sparkly footwear worn during a speech about childhood poverty led to the idea of writing “Diamond Studded Shoes.” Although it does have a feel-good groove, you can’t miss its message of inequality. “And that’s why we gots to fight,” she sings.

To create Stand for Myself, her second album on Nashville-based label Easy Eye Sound, Yola reunited with producer-songwriter Dan Auerbach, and she also pulled in a roster of friends like Brandi Carlile (who sings on “Be My Friend”) and songwriters such as Natalie Hemby (who co-wrote five of the 12 songs) and Aaron Lee Tasjan (a co-writer on “Diamond Studded Shoes”). Still, the defining voice of Stand for Myself is, of course, Yola herself.

BGS: When I was listening to this record again, I was thinking that it does seem like a roots record in the sense that it traces your path from the beginning of your story. And as the album progress, here’s the blossoming at the end. Is that fair to say?

You nailed it. You got it. You felt it. You felt the emotions! It is. I was a bit of a doormat at the beginning and minimizing myself. Joy Oladokun and I were talking about when you grow up as a token Black person in an environment that there aren’t a lot of Black people in, and you’re trying to play guitar and trying to fit in, and you’re not fitting into a trope. … So, we’re in this minimizing, trying-to-fit-in phase. Trying to fit into Eurocentric life as non-Eurocentric people. That’s where we start the album, and then “Dancing Away in Tears” is a bit like a growing out of a relationship, romantically, but obviously it can be socially as well. When I’m singing it, it’s kind of both. It’s like growing out of an environment and just needing to be in another space.

And as you go through the record, “Diamond Studded Shoes” is about the idea of how the macro affects you. You might grow out of a microcosm, but the macro is going to affect how you interact. … Because I’m moving through that, I’m realizing the environment that I’m in and I’m realizing what I want from it, which is essentially connection. I think that’s why by the time we get to “Be My Friend,” you start to realize that I want to connect to people who want to connect to people! (laughs) That’s really what it is! And then I finally do, and as a result, I blossom. As I think humans do. Humans *like* humans, and when they feel seen, they blossom.

That’s really this record. It’s feeling seen, feeling loved, feeling allowed to grow and to do things without someone being like, “Oh, you didn’t serve me. Therefore I’m going to sabotage your existence,” which has been a lot of my life. Or people saying, “Oh, you outgrew me and I don’t like that, so I’m going to sabotage your existence.” It never seems to end, that idea. Or to sabotage people that are trying to help you get somewhere, so it’s not just you. It’s your friend or your squad or whatever. I’m dealing with that. I think “Whatever You Want” is about that, what I like to affectionately call the “bro”-tocracy, a top-down “bro”-tocratic system! (laughs)

This record is called Stand for Myself and not Stand BY Myself. You have surrounded yourself with important people here.

Yes! Just loving people. Big ol’ heart people! Softies! They might be badasses. Brandi and Natalie are some of my besties. Absolute softies of the highest order! That’s really what I’m looking for. I meet all sorts of people, and the people that will stick around in my life, that I will never outgrow, will be those big ol’ softies. Soft badasses! That’s my type!

When you are putting a band together, what qualities are you looking for?

Exactly the same qualities. A badass giant softie who can survive a five-hour brunch with me … and want more! (laughs) For real! Megan [Coleman], the drummer, is one of my best friends of all time. We’re doing Christmas together. She came around for a distance-hang in my yard during lockdown and we were like, “Oh, it’s so hot and disgusting!” We would be spraying water and fanning ourselves and trying to drink gin and tonic, just hanging out! We can spend hours — hours! — talking crap.

You’ve got to live with these people! Literally live in a box with these people. They’ve got to be your favorite people and they better be really amazing at doing their job, because you don’t want to micromanage them the whole time. No one wants to do that, but you want them to be excellent — excellent people, excellent at their job. So, that’s my type. That’s always the type of people I write with. Everything. When I can’t find that, I just wait. I’m patient until I can find that.

Let’s talk about patience. That seems to be a theme in your life. Can you talk about how patience has factored into your story?

Patience has factored into it. I wasn’t really aware of the time it was taking because I could always see the incremental steps, so I think that’s what makes it tolerable. If you were 19 and someone said, “Hey, it’s going to take this long,” you would say, “WHAT THE FREAK?!” It would be horrific! But you don’t know, and you only see every little step.

For example, from a young age, I was touring with DJ producers. We were opening for James Brown in Australia on this tour that this millionaire (now billionaire) guy would put on, just for his own personal entertainment. It was ridiculous money. … It felt like I was on my way because we were doing 20,000-plus natural amphitheater shows in Melbourne, Brisbane, Sydney, Perth … I felt like I was in it. I was in a band called Bugs in the Attic. They were signed and doing some things. But then it just took so much more time, and I got nodules and lost my voice. I had to quit all my jobs. My body wasn’t happy. I was internalizing all of this dissatisfaction instead of expressing it or dealing with it — or knowing how to deal with it or knowing anyone that would let me speak adjacently about what was on my mind.

I allowed people to clip my wings a little bit because I was of some use to other people. I had useful skill sets, so if I was in service, I was often making people a lot of money. And not myself! But other people. *Loads of money.* And loads of acts did good off the back of me. That was something that started becoming too evident. (laughs) I was like, I can’t have this! You know what? I’m going to have to be the master of my own identity.

You’ve been wanting to do this since you were 4 years old, right?

For real. One hundred percent, yeah, I have. I knew it. What I am doing right now is what my 4-year-old self said I should do. But I kept on getting talked out of doing what my 4-year-old self said, because I couldn’t possibly know at that age, right? Only I totally did! And they were like, “Maybe you should be a backing singer.” I don’t wanna do that. Or “Maybe you should be in a band.” Well, I’ll try it, but I don’t know if I wanna do that either. Or “Maybe you should just write for other people.” That sounds like fun, but I feel like I’ve got something to do myself. Or “Maybe you shouldn’t do it at all.” There were so many different options other than maybe just support you in being the artist. It’s a bit of a way around the houses, you know, but my 4-year-old self was dead-on. I should have just listened to her!

On your first record, Walk Through Fire, you’re pictured on the cover playing your guitar. Has that always been part of your dream, to be an instrumentalist as well as a singer and songwriter?

Oh, I’ve only picked up a guitar comparatively recently to most of my friends. I picked it up in 2014. I was a topliner before that – lyrics and melody, which is much of the song still. But I was very codependent. I was always reacting to people’s chords. It was harder for me to get something out on my own. People around me seemed very hellbent on making sure I couldn’t get things out on my own because if I wasn’t codependent, then all of a sudden they don’t have this topliner who can do all of the stuff. They’d tell me, “You don’t need to pick up the guitar. Don’t worry about it.” It’s really hard to play C, D, and G. I wouldn’t even look into it! (laughs) “I don’t think you have the inclination to play the guitar.” That’s what someone said to me. “It’s going to require a staying power that I don’t think you have, so you know, try something else. Everybody’s got things they’re good at. You’re good at loads of stuff. Just not that.”

Before you even tried it, people told you that you weren’t good at it?

Yeah! But when you’re in your early 20s, you don’t realize how much you don’t know. You think you’re real smart, and you’re officially an adult, and you managed to not die. You’ve put yourself in some sketchy situations and not died! There is something to that. We weren’t activists trying to save the planet. We were drunk! So, yeah, you’re naïve and you’re trusting, I suppose. But the 20s are for that. That’s where you make all of your mistakes. That’s what the whole decade is for: “Whoops! Oh no!” Then you get to 29 and you realize it’s not sustainable. And you have what I like to affectionately term “The 29 Panic.” (laughs) You purge a lot of weirdos and try to get it together.

You’re going into 2022 with these Grammy nominations and you’re going to be in a movie next year, too. And you have more things in store, I’m sure. What are you enjoying the most about this time of your career?

I felt like over the first cycle, we were all learning how to do what we’re now doing. I like to convert people. I converted people on my team from adjacent trades that I knew would equip them exclusively for what I needed them to do. (laughs) So, I’ve got this absolute team of badasses and we’re able to go into situations that look impossible and nail it. We convert situations that are way outside of our price tag. Way outside of all sorts of things! It’s exciting to know that you can handle something and actually have a plan. It may be somewhat ridiculous, and we don’t know how we’re going to do it, and we definitely can’t afford it, but we’re going to get it over the line, you know? It’s that fight!

Photo Credit: Joseph Ross Smith