The Other 22 Hours: James Victore

James Victore is an Emmy Award-winning artist and author whose work is held in the permanent collection of the Louvre and has been exhibited many times at MoMA (NYC). Victore has shaped the visual language of institutions from The New York Times to the City of New York. In this conversation, we explore the spiritual gravity of “staying in the pool” when creativity gets hard, discuss the incubation time of the soul, the environmental and creative toll of our want of ease, and the quiet, daily discipline of living consciously in a world designed to keep us asleep.

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In This Episode:

James Victore
Museum of Natural History NYC
Mr Doodle
Keith Haring
Museum of Modern Art (MoMA)
A League of Their Own

Go Deeper:

Watch: View this entire conversation on YouTube.
Explore: Find similar conversations in these themed playlists.
Connect: Join the conversation on Instagram.

The Other 22 Hours is hosted by Aaron Shafer-Haiss (producer, mixer, musician) and Michaela Anne (songwriter, artist, creative coach). More about Aaron’s workMore about Michaela Anne’s work.


Produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss. Original music written, performed and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Photo Credit: Nick Onken

The Working Songwriter: Fruition

Our guests this week got their start busking on the streets of Portland, Oregon, but it wasn’t long before their popularity pulled them onto the open road. Jay Cobb Anderson and Kellen Asebroek are pivotal and founding members of roots music band Fruition. They have toured with Greensky Bluegrass, the Infamous Stringdusters, Yonder Mountain String Band, and many others and have appeared at iconic festivals such as Telluride Bluegrass Festival, WinterWonderGrass, and the Northwest String Summit.

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Fruition’s 2018 release, Watching It All Fall Apart, debuted at #3 on the Billboard Bluegrass Albums Chart. Billboard said, “Fruition have matured into one of America’s most compelling roots acts” while Rolling Stone Country noted, “The trio’s harmonies are as tight as anything coming out of Nashville.” No Depression declared that they’re “a band whose chemistry feels lived-in and wholly authentic.”

I got a chance to catch up with them a while back to hear about their musical journey so far.


Photo Credit: Kaja Sigvalda

Basic Folk: The Mammals

Mike Merenda and Ruth Ungar Merenda have been making music together as the Mammals since 2001, with a little break in 2008 to play as Mike & Ruthy. They’ve been back as the Mammals since 2017 with a couple of great albums, most recently Touch Grass Vol. 1 and Vol. 2. Mike, born and raised in New Hampshire, picked up the banjo after he met fiddler Ruth Ungar. Ruth is the daughter of Jay Ungar, a much-loved folk musician who is best known for his composition, “Ashokan Farewell,” used as the theme tune to the Ken Burns 1990 documentary The Civil War, which you now have playing in your head. Essentially, Ruth grew up surrounded by folk music, which she talked all about on her previous appearance on Basic Folk.

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This time around, we dig into a few of the songs on their double album Touch Grass. There are A LOT to choose from: seventeen tracks in all. It was a four-year project recorded at their Humble Abode studio in the Catskills. The songs offer a mix of socially conscious “daytime” folk-rock and introspective “nighttime” Americana. We get into the gospel influence on “O The Cruelty,” the bare-bones arrangements of “Old Friend,” and keeping the sadness in check with “Doldrums.” They also talk a bit about their home venue, the Ashokan Center, where their musical festival the Hoot takes place. Let it be known that the center has a ton of old farm equipment and no, they do not want any more, so don’t ask them to take it. Thanks, Mike & Ruthy!


Photo Credit: Lead image and vertical alternate image by Wayne Gibbous; square alternate image by Tanya Barricklo.

The Other 22 Hours: S.G. Goodman

Singer-songwriter S.G. Goodman has earned critical acclaim, award nominations, and has worked with legends like Tyler Childers, Jason Isbell, and Jim James of My Morning Jacket. In this episode of the Other 22 Hours, we discuss the grueling physical and mental requirements of “making it.” From working manual labor to stay afloat while not on the road to navigating the complex realities of running a bona fide business, S.G. opens up about scarcity, OCD, and the hard-won wisdom of learning to drive the lawnmower instead of letting it drive you.

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In This Episode:

SG Goodman
Mas Tacos
Madison Cunningham
Jesse Welles

Go Deeper:

Watch: View this entire conversation on YouTube.
Explore: Find similar conversations in these themed playlists.
Connect: Join the conversation on Instagram.

The Other 22 Hours is hosted by Aaron Shafer-Haiss (producer, mixer, musician) and Michaela Anne (songwriter, artist, creative coach). More about Aaron’s workMore about Michaela Anne’s work.


Produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss. Original music written, performed and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Photo Credit: Ryan Hartley

The Other 22 Hours: Hunter Hayes

Five-time GRAMMY nominee Hunter Hayes has spent his entire life on the national stage, from performing at the White House at age seven to sharing stadium spotlights with the likes of Stevie Wonder and Taylor Swift. Yet, behind the multi-platinum accolades was a realization that his professional development had far outpaced his personal life. In this episode of the Other 22 Hours, we explore the vulnerability of “growing up” in the public eye, the paralyzing fear of not being busy, and how a strict routine can actually provide the ultimate freedom to play. And, we chat about how starting from a place of love is the only viable way to build an artistic career that lasts.

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In This Episode:

Hunter Hayes
Dann Huff
Ep136 – Chely Wright
Ep 73 – Edwin McCain

Go Deeper:

Watch: View this entire conversation on YouTube.
Explore: Find similar conversations in these themed playlists.
Connect: Join the conversation on Instagram.

The Other 22 Hours is hosted by Aaron Shafer-Haiss (producer, mixer, musician) and Michaela Anne (songwriter, artist, creative coach). More about Aaron’s workMore about Michaela Anne’s work.


Produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss. Original music written, performed and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Photo Credit: Noah Tidmore

The Working Songwriter: Jason Boland

Our guest today on the Working Songwriter hails from Oklahoma and is a foundational contributor to the uniquely American genre of Red Dirt music. Jason Boland released his first album, Pearl Snaps, in 1999 and has been on the road ever since. Nightclub by nightclub, fan by fan, he’s built a devoted national audience.

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Boland has toured with Turnpike Troubadours, Cross Canadian Ragweed, Reckless Kelly, and a host of others. He’s recorded for Thirty Tigers and Top Hat Records. He’s appeared at Stagecoach, Luck Reunion, and the MusicFest at Steamboat. Texas Monthly called him “equal parts poet, rebel, and road warrior” and Rolling Stone declared his sound “unpolished, unsparing, and deeply human.”

I got a chance a while back to catch up with Jason and hear about his musical journey so far.


Photo Credit: Cameron L. Gott Photography

Basic Folk: Mark Erelli & Joe Henry

Joe Henry has released 15 studio albums, apprenticed for legendary producer T Bone Burnett and, in turn, has produced many other musicians’ albums on his own, including three GRAMMY Award-winning albums – for Solomon Burke, Carolina Chocolate Drops, and Ramblin’ Jack Elliott. He’s co-written a few songs as well, including a couple with his sister-in-law, who happens to be the one and only legendary pop icon Madonna. His latest album is Life and Time, a collaboration with songwriter Mike Reid, who has written many wonderful songs like “I Can’t Make You Love Me,” one of Bonnie Raitt’s most successful and beloved recordings. In recent years, Joe has struck up a friendship with our bestie, Mark Erelli. Mark’s been on Basic Folk 10,000 times and in honor of his new record, Spring Green, we invited him to do whatever he wanted on this appearance on the pod. Mark chose to be in conversation with his friend Joe on location at Joe’s beautiful studio located north of Portland on the coast of Maine.

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In 2020, Mark was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa (or RP) which is causing him to slowly go blind. Joe was diagnosed with stage 4 prostate cancer in 2018 and was told he only had months to live. Now, in 2026, his cancer is in remission and his health has improved. In this Basic Folk conversation, they tackle topics such as asking for help and finding hope while living with chronic illnesses. They also get into other parallels the two musicians have experienced, including how music has shaped their male friendships and being free of vanity. Mark and Joe have never worked together, but their respect and admiration for the other is clear from their time together. Here’s hoping a collaboration is in the works for the near future!


Photo Credit: Joe Henry by David McClister; Mark Erelli by Joe Navas.

The Other 22 Hours: Butch Walker

Butch Walker has spent decades at the summit of the music industry, producing multi-platinum records for icons like Pink, Katy Perry, and Green Day while fronting his own high-energy solo tours. Yet, despite reaching that peak, he found himself “climbing the hill” so intently that he had forgotten to look at the view, leading to burnout and a desire to step back. In this episode of the Other 22 Hours, we explore the courage required to dismantle an ego-driven path in favor of a soul-driven one, and finding unbridled joy in the simple act of being a “sponge” for new inspiration.

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In This Episode:

– Butch Walker
– Marvelous 3
– John Legend
– Frank Zappa
– Train
– Taylor Swift
– Bad Bunny
– Kendrick Lamar
– Desmond Child

Go Deeper:

Watch: View this entire conversation on YouTube.
Explore: Find similar conversations in these themed playlists.
Connect: Join the conversation on Instagram.

The Other 22 Hours is hosted by Aaron Shafer-Haiss (producer, mixer, musician) and Michaela Anne (songwriter, artist, creative coach). More about Aaron’s work. More about Michaela Anne’s work.


Produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss. Original music written, performed and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Photo Credit: Rose Catherine Hohl

Artist of the Month: Lucinda Williams

Among the 78 bands performing for thousands of fans at San Francisco’s 25th annual Hardly Strictly Bluegrass, our nation’s foremost Americana festival, in October of 2025, one of the largest audiences had gathered for Lucinda Williams. She took the main stage in the afternoon clad in a leather suit, studs on the hem of her pants. The groove from the band and her lyrics landed with resonant pounding, like the drop of a heavy set of books on a table. After more than 50 years of performing, her sound still hits.

Lucinda Williams grasped brilliance in 1998 with Car Wheels On A Gravel Road, but this was not some isolated incident. She has pursued the craft of album-making expertly for her entire career, and fans flock to her because there is always something more to scratch up. The singularity of her writing rings at a higher frequency today in our shallow digitized world. I see her current position in our culture to be similar to that of poet-songwriter Leonard Cohen in his final chapter. When she sings, we listeners get to grasp at something real, and we crave what Lucinda offers; intimate corporeal love, the palette of Southern backroads alongside broken-down juke joints, honest bewilderment at the state of the world while still loving it.

When I was 26, I set out on a road trip to trace Lucinda’s origins. Being a songwriter, I wanted to determine what I could do to strive and bloom, like she did. So I left California driving my 1995 Ford F-250. From Texas to Tennessee, I dug up characters from Lucinda’s early days. I was most interested in finding people who had worked with her in the beginning of her career.

In Jackson, Mississippi, I spent a day at Malaco Studios where Lucinda made her first record Ramblin’ On My Mind. While listening to outtakes, I happened upon the first-ever originals she recorded but never released. In those reel-to-reel tapes that had been sitting untouched in a concrete vault, I heard a voice from four decades ago that was clear and bold. Wolf Stephenson was the engineer from that session and he told me that in 1978 Lucinda was a resolute and present woman: “[In] day-to-day life, she was just as footloose and like she was on stage. And really there wasn’t much difference in sitting here talking [with her] or being on stage, very natural.”

In Austin, Texas, I was shocked to learn that well-known guitarist Charlie Sexton had played with Lucinda when he was just 11 and she was 26. At the Hole in the Wall where a booker once cancelled Lucinda’s gig because there were “too many girl singers that month,” Charlie and I discussed how he has learned from Lucinda as a writer. He reflected on his early impressions of her and told me, “…There’s no doubt that Lucinda was always going to be unique… I mean, she’s like a regional writer in a way… she’s the Flannery O’Connor of that era of singer-songwriter.”

Lucinda’s parents raised her in an extraordinary community. Her father Miller Williams was a professor, a translator, and a poet. He and his wife were descendants of humble traveling Methodist ministers with meager finances, but by the time their first daughter Lucinda was a teen, the family sat in the company of Nobel Prize-winning authors. Miller’s genuine passion for literature gave him the conviction to invite figures like Charles Bukowski and indeed Flannery O’Connor into his circle of friends and acquaintances. He hosted literary parties in the family’s Arkansas home. After drinks were served, Miller read some of his new poems out loud, and a young Lucinda sat and strummed her latest songs. Writers of the highest caliber listened at attention. Some of these writers gave Lucinda feedback. Perhaps just as important was that these writers also imparted genuine encouragement to Lucinda and told her that in spite of all of the suffering and uncertainties involved in being an artist, it was still a worthwhile pursuit in life.

Along my road trip I also discovered how committed Lucinda has been to her art over the decades. I spoke at length with some of the musicians and engineers that worked on Car Wheels On A Gravel Road. I learned from Lucinda’s recollections that when you have that itching worry that a sound just isn’t right on an album, you have to wrestle with the process to find the right timbre, the right soundscape that will thrill you. I found that a songwriter has to embrace change, even if they’re unsure of the career consequences. I found that artists can’t just make the same album over and over again. Well… they can, but they probably shouldn’t. A songwriter has to keep seeking out that sound, that story that pulls at their soul’s musical corners, like Lucinda did.

Lucinda’s latest release, World’s Gone Wrong, is a continuation of the directness I’ve known her for. She conveys her truth with her language of simplicity. So often in our era, bathed in a slurry of news and trends, opinions from artists can feel glued-on. But that’s not the case with Lucinda. She conveys her frustrations with the state of the world from a genuine and honest place and, when she sings, I believe her. As with so much of her writing, in her latest album I feel like I’m reading a book, inhabiting the imagined place of the viewer and the subject.

The characters in Lucinda’s songs are alive, bleeding, imperfect, and desirously wanting. We benefit from the chance to continue paying attention to the words she writes.

If you’d like to learn all about how I retraced the roots of Lucinda Williams, check out Finding Lucinda, my podcast released in partnership with the BGS Podcast Network. You can also watch the documentary film Finding Lucinda on AppleTV, Youtube and more.

Stay tuned as BGS and Good Country celebrate Lucinda Williams as Artist of the Month throughout March. Enjoy our Essential Lucinda Williams playlist below and check out an exclusive interview with Williams here. Plus, we’ll be diving into the BGS archives for all things Lu and exploring our favorite covers of her songs by other artists, too. Follow along right here on BGS and on social media for more.


Photo Credit: Mark Seliger

The Other 22 Hours Joins BGS Podcast Network

BGS is ecstatic to announced The Other 22 Hours, a beloved podcast hosted by singer-songwriter Michaela Anne and music producer Aaron Shafer-Haiss, is joining the BGS Podcast Network. Beginning Wednesday, March 4, new episodes of The Other 22 Hours will be distributed by BGS and hosted right here on our website, as well. Founded in 2023, the show has produced more than 130 episodes – which drop weekly – featuring conversations with renowned musicians and artists who share tools for resilience, helping all kinds of creatives to feel more inspired, connected, and confident in their creative journey. If an artist, creative, or musician is “performing” only a couple of hours each day, what do they do with the other 22 hours? The brand new season of the pod will launch Wednesday with an interview with producer, musician, and singer-songwriter Butch Walker. Subscribe now.

“BGS is thrilled to welcome The Other 22 Hours to the BGS Podcast Network,” said Cindy Howes, who directs the network for the Bluegrass Situation and Good Country. “Michaela and Aaron have developed a beautiful space to hold conversations that offer a unique look behind the humans who make the art we love. There’s so much the public at large does not know about what it takes to live and maintain a creative life; Michaela and Aaron help us all be more responsible patrons of the arts as well as seeding inspiration for our own creative endeavors.”

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Michaela Anne is a celebrated singer-songwriter and folk/Americana artist who has been covered by BGS and featured on our stages many times over the years. Shafer-Haiss, her husband and collaborator, is an accomplished record producer, drummer, songwriter, and composer. Together, they’ve have had thoughtful and down-to-earth conversations over the past few years with incredible creatives like The Milk Carton Kids, Leyla McCalla, Rodney Crowell, Adia Victoria, Mary Gauthier, Lori McKenna, Watkins Family Hour, Miko Marks, Brandy Clark, Tift Merritt, Raye Zaragoza, and many more.

“We’ve been friends and occasional collaborators with the BGS family for years,” Michaela Anne and Shafer-Haiss share via email, “so bringing The Other 22 Hours to the network feels like a bit of a homecoming. Our show has always been about the reality behind the highlight reel, a community-built road map to sustaining a creative life. We’re thrilled to get to align our conversations with a network that values the craft just as much as the art.”

To celebrate the Other 22 Hours joining the BGS Podcast Network and in anticipation of the new season launching this week, we’re sharing five of ours, Michaela Anne’s, and Shafer-Haiss’s favorite archive episodes from the podcast’s three existing seasons. Dive in, catch up on what you missed, and stay tuned for more episodes of The Other 22 Hours coming weekly right here on BGS and wherever you get podcasts. More info on the show here.

Rosanne Cash (EP 100, April 2025)

“We talk with the legendary songwriter about navigating insecurity and imposter syndrome, measuring your own success by your talent and not your validation, and allowing yourself to be called an artist. We also get into prose vs. songwriting, respect for yourself and for the audience, and Cash’s rituals.”


Maggie Smith (EP 96, March 2025)

“We talk with New York Times best-selling author about keeping the purity of your creativity, being integrated as a human, and trusting yourself to do what’s needed to keep this career going. Plus, being your own safety net, being open to completely revamping work, and arm wrestling.”


Yancey Strickler (EP 126, October 2025)

“We talk with the co-found of Kickstarter (and the Creative Independent, Metalabel, and Artist Corporations) about revolutionizing the creator economy. We talk about his concept and creation of Artist Corporations – think incorporating independent artists – the systemic exploitation of artists, how DSPs trade convenience for meaning and depth, platform boycotts, and ‘winning’ in its purest sense.”


JOHNNYSWIM (EP 113, July 2025)

“We talk with the folk/soul/pop duo about staying curious in your pursuits and creating space for wonder and childlike-ness. They offer their thoughts on how to rejuvenate yourself and your creativity on the run, the blinders of fixation, family, and more.”


Joe Henry (EP 39, 2023)

“We talk with the acclaimed songwriter and producer about keeping yourself in the creative stream, knowing when to step away, acceptance, and the quote, ‘How you do anything is how you do everything.'”


Photo Credit: Sam Wiseman