Mandolinist Joe K. Walsh on Building ‘Trust and Love’

On April 4, Joe K. Walsh released his latest album, Trust and Love. The project is an utterly gorgeous take on minimalism within music. It combines a unique instrumentation of Joe (on the mandolin family instruments), Rich Hinman (guitar, lap steel, pedal steel), Zachariah Hickman (bass), Dave Brophy (drums and percussion), John Mailander (fiddle, except track 2) and Bobby Britt (fiddle, track 2).

I’ve been very fortunate to get to study mandolin with Joe as my teacher for the last four years at Berklee College of Music. In talking with him about Trust and Love, what stood out to me in a significant way was the excitement he has in making music with his friends and finding music that brings a great amount of joy. Often as musicians, we lose track of the point of playing music–to bring joy to ourselves and those who are listening to it. Joe has always emphasized this and in listening to his new album, it brings home this powerful message.

What was the inspiration of the album and when did you start writing it?

Joe K. Walsh: Well, I’m always writing. Every day I try to write, I think it’s a good goal. I like the concept of not waiting for inspiration and there’s that line Bill Frisell had in his notebook which was, if you want to learn how to write, pick up a piece of paper and a pencil or something like that, just start doing it. So I try to write every day and most of it’s garbage, but I believe in the numbers game. This wasn’t really a batch of tunes written all together. Some of the tunes are older, probably as old as six or seven years. As for the inspiration for the album, the music I need at the moment and have [needed] for about five or six years is peaceful music. Music that has a restorative quality, as opposed to exciting or some sort of impressive stuff. I’m trying to write stuff that fills a room with beauty as opposed to stuff that’s just like, “Oh man, kick ass bro!” That was the idea with this collection of tunes.

Let’s say I have 30 or 40 tunes. In a moment where I’m like, “These might be worth giving some air to in public,” then you look for some sort of theme that ties some of them together. That was the theme here. There was a while when I was making records that I believed in, but were also partially about what I thought the mandolin was supposed to do. There was a disconnect between what I listened to and what I played, and I think it’s weird that there was a disconnect. I just became really aware I was listening to these spare and peaceful records that are entirely about interaction and trying to find beautiful melodies as a composer, but also as an improviser with the group. That’s not totally distinct from bluegrass, but it’s also not the same.

In your album description, you write that this body of work is “showcasing the power of musicians listening and reacting to each other, sensitive improvisors sharing a musical conversation and following the threads.” When you’re writing something like this and give it to the band, was there more or less an arrangement idea that you had? Or was it just you all playing with each other and experimenting with it as you went?

I think it’s a little of both. I think in situations like this record, the hiring is probably as important as the writing. Finding people whose musical instincts I completely trust and don’t want to direct was really important. I’ve been privileged to be in situations like that with people where I don’t want to give them all the answers. I know that if I do, the end result will not be as good as if I bring in some ingredients and see what collectively we come up with. I’m not saying a person wouldn’t come in with some arrangements, I like to come in with ideas and try things out. I like the phrase “remain open to revelation.”

You also say that a big concept of this album is “less is more” and that, now more than ever, we need to be thinking about that. Can you talk about how you would take those life concepts and apply them to your music and how you practice?

There’s a lot there! [Laughs] Well, first of all, I am kind of a little disenchanted with the approach to playing the mandolin or the approach to playing improvised music that is centered around technical fireworks. I think that that can be exciting, but it’s also not where I’m at emotionally these days, with the state of the world and the state of my family and everything. I do think I’m finding myself preferring music that leaves space and that doesn’t have to state everything, that has faith in its listener, where you can hear a connection without it being explicit or made insultingly explicit. I think all those things would fall into the category of less is more.

But the main thing for me, and this is not a “hot take,” this is not my solitary opinion, but obviously we’re living in a maximalist moment with just an unstopping onslaught of information and stimuli. I really need music now where we have an attention span and patience for something unfurling slowly. Obviously that’s not everybody, everybody doesn’t need that, but I do. I need a longer form. You know there’s longer form journalism, I’m drawn to that of course, and I think there’s an argument that there’s a connection with music for longer form and longer amounts of patience.

Yeah, I definitely hear that.

I feel like many people know you for your more bluegrass-adjacent mandolin playing. You also play in a not-so-bluegrass, bluegrass-related band, Mr. Sun, which sounds pretty different from this album. You talk about the idea of minimalism in a time of maximalism, do you feel like that is a newer concept that you are playing with in this album, or is that something that you are thinking about often, even when you’re playing a lot of straight ahead bluegrass? Are these concepts and feelings still in your mind?

Yeah, you know how the version that one friend knows of us is different than the version somebody else knows? Both of those versions can be true and I feel like the same thing happens with going from one musical relationship to another. What comes out may be dramatically different, and hopefully you focus on the shared value system of whomever you’re playing with. That may end up being a distinctly different sound. I guess that is to say, I feel like all these things are reflecting a similar value system; it just comes out differently with different people.

How did you come up with the instrumentation for this group?

That’s a good question. It’s unusual to have a record with mandolin and pedal steel on it together.

I love it!

Nice, awesome! You know, when I came out of Berklee, I used to think, “OK, I found a banjo player, now I need to find a fiddler.” You know, thinking about it from these “recipes” we’re getting acquainted with and understand. It took me a little while to shift to thinking about personalities that I connect with more so than instruments. I just felt a strong intuition that all the things I’m articulating were values that Rich shared, but also I knew it was the case with John, Bobby, and Zach. I knew Dave less, but I felt safe guessing. But specifically with Rich, I really felt that all the things I was trying to do were based on values that he shared and I didn’t even have to particularly discuss it. That’s always the best, when you just know that someone gets your goals and you don’t have to describe them; they’re already sharing the same goals.

I feel very grateful to have the opportunity to work with musicians that I find very inspiring and beautiful. It’s a great privilege to get to share some days with musicians like that and have them be willing to share their personalities that way. It’s not something to take for granted.

That’s pretty beautiful, especially with an album that’s just so much about time and space and overall has a sweetness to it.

I appreciate that. Like I said, I realized the things I was listening to just sometimes felt distinctly different than what I was sometimes playing. Both are great, and I’m definitely not trying to say I don’t like playing bluegrass or listening to it. I absolutely love it. It’s great and definitely a big part of my musical diet, but also, for years – decades even – I’ve been listening to these really quiet, understated records. I always think, “What’s the thing that ties Martin Hayes and Bill Frisell together?” They are very different, but they sustain my attention in a way that doesn’t use the tools that many other people do with maximalism is really what I mean.

That’s a great way to put it, because I never really thought of music as being minimal or maximal. But after listening to your album and reading what you wrote about it, I started thinking about it and it’s interesting to go back and observe things that you thought were just so sweet, realizing that actually there is so much happening.

Music, for me, is about trying to create beauty and trying to create a feeling and a shared connection through those things. I’m really adverse to the idea of music as a tool for ramping up our own egos, which is a challenge. I feel like there are choices you can make, and I’ve become more aware of the choices that I feel are serving my ego versus serving the music or moving towards a feeling. It’s not always either/or, but I’m trying to be more suspicious and adverse to the things that feel like they’re serving my ego.

On this album, you go between different members of the mandolin family–

Yeah, mandola, octave mandolin, and the mandolin of course.

How did you find the right instrument for each song?

[Laughs] It’s an experiment! They’re all tuned in fifths, so in a sense you could just argue they all feel the same, but I think when you try and write, even picking up different mandolins, even just one mandolin to another, may inspire different thoughts. Certainly switching from the mandolin to the mandola leads to me paying attention to different things and, if I’m lucky, catching inspiration to chase an idea. Some of these tunes were written specifically on the mandola and stayed there, and the same is true with the octave mandolin.

I also think, [thinking about] sustain, the octave mandolin, bizarrely enough, feels to me like it does that in the mandolin family. Sometimes I feel like playing the octave mandolin you can’t be as athletic, because of the physical challenges of the instrument, but also it can sometimes have a little more sustain. Again, you can be nudged in a nice, positive, “less is more” direction trying to be musical with a smaller collection of what’s possible.

Let’s talk about some of the tunes on the album! I feel like throughout the whole project there is this really solid vibe that you build and it’s just gorgeous. Then you get to “Cold City” and it feels to me like a different vibe. Did it feel that way to you?

I think that’s fair.

I can see what you mean with the minimalism in this song, but it also has that kind of rocking “oomph” vibe going.

No, you’re totally right. You know, part of the whole thing with this arc – of trying to just crack the code on how to make quieter music that sustains interest – is just being afraid of letting go of some of these things that I know sustain interest. I like that tune, and I think it turned out good, although I think I also could have saved it for a more bluegrass record and that maybe would have made more sense. [Laughs]

I think it works in such a cool way on this album, because it lends this new lens to what you’re already seeing through the other songs.

I also think contrast is one of the most important things in music and that song certainly is contrasting. Basically, I never walk away from a record feeling like I will no longer doubt the decisions I made. That’s not how it works for me. You kind of just get used to the idea that there won’t be a full resolution on some of these decisions you wrestle with. That’s just how it is and you move forward anyway.

The pedal and lap steel on this album are really awesome and amazing. I feel like a lot of musicians don’t seem to mess around with those sorts of textures. There is a moment in the steel solo on “Closer, Still” where it feels like the other instruments drop out a little bit and it’s just the mandolin and steel. That spot feels really special to me and feels like there is this little conversation that the mandolin and steel are having. What it evoked to me was that they are sharing a little secret. How do you think about those two instruments intertwining in general and with music on this album?

Well, one thing that is distinctly different playing with a pedal steel – and again, I really feel like it’s about personalities you can connect with. But in a more tangible way, sustain changes everything. It’s not like we don’t have sustain on the mandolin, but it’s not like a fiddle or a pedal steel. I think with sustain, you’re able to do less and I think that’s probably true for what Rich can do or doesn’t have to do. I think it’s also true that when he is sustaining something, I don’t feel as compelled to, “Quick! Do something!” I think there’s a sense that things can wait a little bit.

I also think that’s true having the drums. That buys a little space, in a sense. There’s more going on, but somehow I can do less or it feels like there’s less going on.

As I recall, there isn’t steel on the whole album. There are some songs where Rich plays other instruments. I like that, in that moment coming out of the steel solo, or still kind of in there, it’s just such a different texture and it was really cool to hear it.

One of my favorite things is listening to people who really listen to each other and for whom the next thing that’s gonna happen is not predetermined. That’s the thing that kind of ties together the people that I was excited to hire for this particular record!

You can do that, obviously, with jazz language and that’s a beautiful thing, but I also think it’s really beautiful and under-explored to do that without requiring jazz language. So often that approach, mentally, goes with advanced and more complicated harmony that some people would call “jazzier” harmony. It’s a really beautiful thing to have that mindset, but not necessarily move in a more harmonically complicated direction.


Photo Credit: Natalie Conn

Sierra Hull & Billy Strings Do Traditional Bluegrass Justice with a Duet on Austin City Limits

Last week, Austin City Limits released an excellent bluegrass performance from their Austin City Limits Celebrates 50 Years broadcast, which debuted on April 4 on PBS. Mandolinist Sierra Hull and guitar phenom Billy Strings appeared on the special ACL show, performing a classic bluegrass number, “Midnight on the Stormy Deep,” a traditional song that entered the bluegrass canon via Bill Monroe himself. (Watch above.) It’s a popular duet, whether at jam sessions or on stage, and in this iteration finds the forward-thinking pair of Hull and Strings employing more retro sounds. Both are adept at these tones and textures, but tend to opt for more envelope-pushing picking on their own songs and creations. It’s lovely to hear both players in a bit more reserved a setting, with moments of star power shining through their tasteful playing and careful listening.

It’s striking how crisp, clean, and precise Hull and Strings render the song, but the grit and gristle that we tend to associate with bluegrass – and that “high lonesome sound” – are evident, certainly not in short supply. Hull’s solos are playful with zany touches and bluesy licks. Strings holds down the resonant lead vocal part while Hull adds the high harmony, both singing the lyric entirely in duet, because that’s how it goes! Strings pulls hard through his own solo with his signature confidence and boldness, while reminding his listeners how pivotal an influence Doc Watson has been across his career.

Hull and Strings are no strangers to collaborating, and in many contexts. Remember that time they covered Post Malone together? And well before Postie’s country foray and Strings’ track features on it. Hull has been known to guest on Strings’ shows, and vice versa. Their backstage cover of “What Does the Deep Sea Say” taped at the Ryman Auditorium has hundreds of thousands of views; “Midnight on the Stormy Deep,” meanwhile, has amassed nearly 200,000 views since it landed on YouTube late last week. Plus, Strings fans will recognize the track, not only from the bluegrass songbook, as it were, but from Strings’ own discography as well. He dueted with bluegrass legend and Hall of Famer Del McCoury on a version of the number a few years back. We never tire of it.

Whatever the many factors that led to Hull and Strings picking “Midnight on the Stormy Deep” together on ACL, they all add up to a live performance that’s easy, confident, and fun, and ultimately speaks to the deep and wide roster of young and younger bluegrass professionals who are keeping this music alive and in the limelight. For the coming generations and as-yet uninitiated new bluegrass fans, too.


Read our recent Cover Story interview with Sierra Hull on her brand new album here.

Read our recent exclusive interview with Billy Strings here.

You Gotta Hear This: New Music From Tim O’Brien, Joe K Walsh, and More

This week our roundup of premieres and new music is a special, “Oops! All Bluegrass!” edition of the weekly series. But still with plenty of variety herein.

Kicking us off, Infamous Stringdusters fiddler Jeremy Garrett unveils “Fly Away to Your Love,” a driving and bluesy modern take on how love can take command of your life, drawing inspiration from Romeo and Juliet. Garrett’s labelmates, Montana-based bluegrass band the Lil Smokies, continue with the theme of love, romance, and sacrifice with “Lay it Down for Love” – because investing in love always pays off.

Guitarist Cameron Knowler showcases “Mule at the Wagon” an acoustic guitar trio number from his new album CRK, which releases today and text paints the beautiful – and stark – Yuma, Arizona, its surrounding states, deserts, and the plains. Plus, mandolinist and professor Joe K. Walsh launches his new album, Trust and Love, today so we’re highlighting a lovely and vibey instrumental, “Oatmeal,” that he appropriately wrote over breakfast.

Bluegrass legend, multi-instrumentalist picker and singer-songwriter Tim O’Brien announces his upcoming album, Paper Flowers, today as well. The lead track from the project, “Lonesome Armadillo,” was written with folk icon Tom Paxton and O’Brien’s partner Jan Fabricius, who features across the new album. It’s a funny tale of a backyard critter trap and a surprise armored four-legged prisoner. Meanwhile, supergroup Sister Sadie bring us a devastating and heartfelt song, “Let the Circle Be Broken,” about interrupting cycles of generational trauma and finding redemption in ourselves and support systems. Written by Sadies Deanie Richardson and Dani Flowers with in-demand songwriter and artist Erin Enderlin, the track is moving and deeply resonant.

Each week of new music is its own adventure, but this roundup feels particularly superlative. You know what we think– You Gotta Hear This!

Jeremy Garrett, “Fly Away to Your Love”

Artist: Jeremy Garrett
Hometown: Drake, Colorado
Song: “Fly Away to Your Love”
Album: Storm Mountain
Release Date: March 28, 2025 (single); June 27, 2025 (album)
Label: Americana Vibes

In Their Words: “When troubles may come, in any relationship, the idea is to persevere – to overcome with grace. The hope of love eternal, or at least a love that stands the test of time. And in the end, like Shakespeare’s famous Romeo and Juliet, if it can’t be, then there is no hope of anything better. So, will it command your life? Is dying in hopes to be with the one you love better than life itself without that someone? Fly away to your love is a modern take, written in an old-time way, encompassing that passion and story in a song.” – Jeremy Garrett

Track Credits:
Jeremy Garrett – Lead vocal, fiddle
Chris Luquette – Guitar
Ryan Cavanaugh – Banjo
Travis Anderson – Bass


Cameron Knowler, “Mule at the Wagon”

Artist: Cameron Knowler
Hometown: Yuma, Arizona
Song: “Mule at the Wagon”
Album: CRK
Release Date: April 4, 2025
Label: Worried Songs

In Their Words: “‘Bull at the Wagon’ is a fiddle tune I sourced from The Lewis Brothers, a great old New Mexico-via-Texas string band with a sweet tooth for rambunctiousness. I changed ‘bull’ to ‘mule’ because, well, I’ve had a few donkey encounters out in West Texas, not far from where the Lewises cut their four sides for the Victor label in 1929. It’s one of those titles that popped into my life at the damndest times – while playing tunes with Frank Fairfield in Los Angeles, performing at a border crossing party in Terlingua, Texas, and visiting with Norman Blake at his home in Rising Fawn, Georgia. To my ear, its melody moves past some of the stylized landscape found in American traditional music these days; maybe it’s the way the four chord asserts itself in the second part, or the way the five chord lands so starkly and dominantly in the third; this mix of quick and static passages is highly generative for arranging and improvising.

“I wanted to see what this tune would yield in a lilting, sort of pastoral setting, so I called my talented friends Jordan Tice and Robert Bowlin who graciously agreed to record it with me at The Tractor Shed in Goodlettsville, Tennessee. Jordan tuned to open G (capo 2), I played out of standard (capo 2), Robert in standard with no capo. Mr. Bowlin and I are playing our old Gibson J-35s and Jordan is using his Preston Thompson OM. The performance found on CRK is one of the first takes.” – Cameron Knowler

Track Credits:
Robert Bowlin – Guitar
Cameron Knowler – Guitar
Sean Sullivan – Engineer
Jordan Tice – Guitar, producer


The Lil Smokies, “Lay It Down for Love”

Artist: The Lil Smokies
Hometown: Montana
Song: “Lay It Down for Love”
Album: Break of the Tide
Release Date: April 4, 2025
Label: Americana Vibes

In Their Words: “The greatest honor of my life is to have spent it fully immersed in music. That’s not to say it hasn’t come without cost. Words can’t carry the weight of the sacrifices required, though I’ve enjoyed trying to explain. All I know is that the loss and doubt I’ve faced has given me a more beautiful life than I ever imagined when I set out on this path. I wouldn’t change a thing. ‘Lay it Down for Love’ was written in some of the darkest days of my life, when there was no evidence that my wagers would come back to me. Today I hear it as a reminder that those days come and go, but investing in love always pays off.” – “Rev,” Matthew Rieger

Track Credits:
Andy Dunnigan – Dobro, vocals
Matthew Rieger – Guitar, vocals
Jake Simpson – Fiddle, guitar, vocals
Jean Luc Davis – Bass
Sam Armstrong Zickefoose – Banjo


Tim O’Brien & Jan Fabricius, “Lonesome Armadillo”

Artist: Tim O’Brien & Jan Fabricius
Hometown: Nashville, Tennessee
Song: “Lonesome Armadillo”
Album: Paper Flowers
Release Date: June 6, 2025
Label: Howdy Skies

In Their Words: “There’s an awful lot of talk about migrants invading from the south, but nobody’s talking about armadillos. After we started trippin’ over little holes in our yard, Jan baited a raccoon trap, focused the security camera on it, and then we drove to Memphis to play a show. On the set break, we saw we’d caught the hard-shelled offender, but after the show we saw that he’d arched his back, bent the trap, and escaped. We told Tom Paxton about it the next week and he said, ‘Let’s tell his story.’

“Jan and I started weekly co-writing sessions with Tom in the spring of 2023 and twelve of the fifteen songs on our June 6th release, Paper Flowers, come from those Wednesday afternoon Zooms. It’s our first real collaborative project and a narrative of Jan’s and my life together runs through the record – from courtship to growing old together, with a road trip, the armadillo, and a granddaughter’s wedding in between.” – Tim O’Brien

Track Credits:
Larry Atamanuik – Drums
Mike Bub – Bass
Jan Fabricius – Mandolin, vocal, songwriting
Mike Rojas – Accordion
Justin Moses – Resophonic guitar
Tim O’Brien – Guitar, vocal, songwriting
Tom Paxton – Songwriting


Sister Sadie, “Let the Circle Be Broken”

Artist: Sister Sadie
Hometown: Nashville, Tennessee
Song: “Let The Circle Be Broken”
Release Date: April 4, 2025

In Their Words: “Dani Flowers, Erin Enderlin, and myself wrote ‘Let the Circle Be Broken’ right after my Dad passed away. He was an abusive man who verbally, emotionally, and sexually abused me for most of my 18 years living at home with him. When I confronted him as an adult, he said that it had been done to him as a child. This song is about that generational trauma and abuse that keeps getting passed down. The continuing of that trauma and abuse stops with me. It doesn’t go any further. It was such a healing and therapeutic experience to write this with Dani and Erin. The recording session for this was so emotional for me. I felt like I was talking to my Dad at the end during the instrumental fade. He was there and he heard me. That circle is officially now broken.” – Deanie Richardson, fiddle

“Deanie, Erin, and I wrote this song about generational trauma, which each of us have experienced different levels of. This song is about how we’ve decided that these cycles that have been repeated over and over in our families end with us. I was born into a family of some of the worst types of people to ever exist in this world and it is sometimes so hard to sit with the fact that you come from a line of people who are capable of doing such awful things to others — to you. While I can’t say the same for many of my family members, I can say for sure that my children will never experience from me what I experienced from my mother and what she experienced from hers and what she experienced from hers.” – Dani Flowers, vocals

“The song ‘Let The Circle Be Broken’ touches us all within this band because of its very personal nature. We feel it every time we perform it on stage. Deanie, Dani, and Erin wrote an incredible song that touches the audience. It’s not uncommon to look out and see tears streaming down people’s faces. As a creator, it’s very overwhelming.” – Gena Britt, banjo

“I resonate so deeply with the message of ‘Let The Circle Be Broken’ and I find myself a little emotional every time we play it. As someone who is actively working to heal my own generational family trauma, seeing the strong women around me working to do the same makes me feel hopeful, grateful and connected.” – Rainy Miatke, mandolin

“I think ‘Let The Circle Be Broken’ is a beautifully written song that a lot of people need to hear. It has a very important message about stopping generational messes and I cry almost every time we play it. I love Deanie so much and I know this song means so much to her, as it does to all of us. ‘Let The Circle Be Broken’ I think could mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, too, and that’s the sign of a fantastic song. Dani Flowers, Deanie Richardson, and Erin Enderlin crafted an amazing piece of art.” – Jaelee Roberts, vocals

Track Credits:
Deanie Richardson – Fiddle
Gena Britt – Baritone banjo
Dani Flowers – Lead vocal
Jaelee Roberts – Harmony vocal
Mary Meyer – Mandolin, piano
Maddie Dalton – Upright bass, harmony vocal
Seth Taylor – Acoustic guitar, electric guitar
Dave Racine – Drums, percussion


Joe K. Walsh, “Oatmeal”

Artist: Joe K. Walsh
Hometown: Portland, Maine
Song: “Oatmeal”
Album: Trust and Love
Release Date: April 4, 2025
Label: Adhyâropa Records

In Their Words: “There are so many tunes that I love that are comprised of an entirely (or almost entirely) diatonic melody which has been harmonized with non-diatonic chords. Some favorite examples are ‘Moon River,’ ‘Someone to Watch Over Me,’ David Grisman’s ‘Dawg’s Waltz,’ Pat Metheny’s tune ‘James,’ and Matt Flinner’s tune ‘Fallen Star.’ I’ve taught a tune-writing ensemble at Berklee for many years, with the idea that each of member of the ensemble writes and presents a tune every week, and I like to use this idea as a prompt for the students. This tune was one I wrote over breakfast in response to this prompt one morning before heading to Boston for school.” – Joe K. Walsh

Track Credits:
Joe K. Walsh – Mandolin
Rich Hinman – Pedal steel
Zackariah Hickman – Bass
John Mailander – Fiddle
Dave Brophy – Drums


Photo Credit: Tim O’Brien and Jan Fabricius by Scott Simontacchi; Joe K. Walsh by Natalie Conn.

With Each and Every Album, Extraordinary Mandolinist Sierra Hull Finds Herself

The traditional path of a musician’s career would say that gaining a record label’s approval reflects a certain level of accomplishment and stature. That’s a good thing, right? It can be, but what makes for the right fit to a musician’s career – whether with a label or as an independent artist – largely depends on how a person wants to navigate the ebbs and flows that come with making music for a living.

Enter Sierra Hull.

Just over five years removed from her fourth full-length album, 25 Trips, the aforementioned fork in the road is exactly the juncture at which Hull recently found herself. Now bearing her fifth full-length album, A Tip Toe High Wire, the Nashville-based mandolinist and songwriter decided that the extra work of an independent release didn’t scare her.

In fact, Hull is someone who keeps busy – “I’m not good with time off,” she says – and A Tip Toe High Wire may turn out to be her most true-to-form album to date. From her collaborators – Béla Fleck, Tim O’Brien, Aoife O’Donovan, Lindsay Lou, Ronnie Bowman, Justin Moses, Ethan Jodziewicz, Geoff Saunders and more – to her co-writers, to production, arrangements, and underlying theme, every aspect of the record evokes Hull’s concentrated instincts as a musician, composer, and experienced public artist.

These songs let the rest of us know just a little more about the “who,” “how,” and “why” behind the music and how it fits into Hull’s life and of the lives of those she holds dear. It’s a multifaceted expression of individualism and independence while also being nowhere near a display of isolated work – truly a balancing act of coexisting contrasts.

BGS spoke with Sierra Hull by phone ahead of a packed tour, about the significance of going independent, embracing new ways of songwriting, how her perspective of making music has changed, and more.

How would you describe where you were creatively, between the release of 25 Trips and leading into this new independent recording?

Sierra Hull: Part of it is that I didn’t really have the opportunity to go out and tour 25 Trips. When things were starting to open up [after the pandemic shutdown], I put together this band that I’m touring with and was able to think about what I wanted the music to feel like on the heels of [COVID]. I tried to think about songs that would would feel fun to stand on a stage and perform, you know? And I think some of the context of moving into [A Tip Toe High Wire] was thinking about that.

[25 Trips] was also my last record as part of my Rounder Records contract. A Tip Toe High Wire just felt like this new chapter. And having fresh songs that I had started to write, having been inspired by the time off the road to write music, I kind of leaned into that. I was loving playing with this band and I felt like I had the freedom to not necessarily have outside chatter in my ear about what the next thing needed to be. It felt like an opportunity to just make music that I felt excited by and capture it. At first I wasn’t sure if it was going to become a record, or a single, or what it might be. But the further we got into it, I would just continue to book sessions that we could get in the studio and record in between all the touring.

I feel like [being independent] gives me more of an opportunity to have a direct offering and connection to my fans in a way that maybe I couldn’t have in another scenario, and it feels really important for me to have that in this moment.

How has your perspective of the music and album making process changed? What kind of goals did you set for yourself in this new career chapter?

I don’t know if my goals felt different, because the goal for me has never been to try to chase a particular thing or to please a certain kind of entity. But at the same time, when you’re independent, you get to call all the shots, you know? You decide when you’re recording, how you’re recording, when the music gets released, how it gets released, all that kind of stuff. It’s kind of like a difference of me deciding what’s on the puzzle pieces and then figuring out how to put the puzzle together, rather than just somebody handing you a puzzle and the picture is there already.

I often say, “If I was only making music for me, I could do that anytime I want.” I can sit at home in a room by myself and enjoy music that way. But I think that we as artists and performers, we create and we make stuff because we want to be able to share with people. We want to be able to share a common emotional experience with people. It’s the struggle between trusting yourself, and being vulnerable enough to receive the good things and knowledge that other people around me have to offer.

In deciding, “I’m going to do what I want to do,” it almost prompts the question, “Wouldn’t she have that figured out already?” It’s a nice reminder that there’s no timeline to connecting with self-discovery.

It’s funny, because I feel like it’s one of those things with every album I’ve made. [People say,] “She’s finally coming into her own” – it’s like that every chapter! But the truth is, that’s the human story at any level. You can be coming into your own your entire life. you know? It looks different at 16, and it looks different at 20, it looks different at 25, and it looks different now in my 30s.

There is a certain amount of weird calm that I feel about more things in my life and I think part of that is when you work hard throughout your 20s and there’s such a grind taking place. For me, I love the grind. I live for the work part of all this. Like I said, I’m not really good at just sitting around doing nothing so I’d rather be working than not. But at the same time, I need to not clench my hands too tightly around the thing that is my art and my career. So much of this is out of my control. People will like it or they they won’t and it’s about trying to find some peace and asking myself, “Do I feel like I’ve done my best?” And how much that really matters, instead of being as validated by the praise one receives. We all long for that – I’d be lying if I said I didn’t, too. But I think there’s just a little bit less worry about that. It kind of feels like age gives you that.

What about your songwriting approach did you change for A Tip Toe High Wire?

I think songwriting is always such a journey. This was the first record that has been primarily made up of my touring band. Some of the songs were written and then performed live before we even recorded them in the studio – not all of them – but a good chunk of them have been road-tested, which is an interesting way of [developing a song]. “Lord, That’s a Long Way,” I wrote that tune because I literally was imagining in my mind the way it would feel to play this live with this band. It’s a different kind of approach when you’re thinking that way. I imagine one instrument kicking it off and then another one joining in on that same riff and kind of building the opening. In this way, sometimes you can almost hear it and feel it in a live experience before you’re even finished writing a song.

“Muddy Water” is a beautiful song with an equally beautiful sentiment about staying true to oneself. How does this mentality applies to your experience as an artist?

I think part of it is about trying to not become jaded by [the life of a musician]. If you’re doing something over and over and it kind of becomes your world, it’s easy to get burned out. I’m always trying to make sure that I don’t get burned out and am finding ways to be inspired. So much of that is about keeping a positive mindset and trying to keep an open mindset to the inspiration around us. The other thing that I’ll say is, I’ve gotten to do so much collaborating over the last few years. That’s been a big part of my musical world and I feel like it’s been really broad-reaching too, in ways that I’m inspired.

Stepping out on tour with Cory Wong – that’s a fun time. It’s way different than what I do, but it’s a fun time. Going to make music with Béla Fleck – that’s about really getting in the weeds and rehearsing and working hard on incredibly complex instrumental music. Getting to go join Sturgill Simpson on something, it’s about not over-rehearsing the songs and making sure there’s something about the freshness of maybe one or two takes in the recording studio. That’s why I love collaboration. Being part of something that’s not yours, but you’re kind of part of it so you’re getting to learn and grow and experience and have that excitement rub off on you.

Several of the songs on A Tip Toe High Wire – “Red Bird,” “Haven Hill,” “Spitfire,” “Lord, That’s a Long Way” – nod to the matriarchs of your family. How would you describe where and how music fit into their lives and shaped each of their relationships with you and how you remember them?

Music was part of everyday life. My whole family is very much rooted in the backwoods of Appalachia, the boonies of Tennessee, as far back as I know. Not a lot of money, no college degrees, but such smart, strong characters and people with a wealth of knowledge and grit and toughness and all that. I think music was a way that they were able to cope and have it be part of their way to pass the time. More a way of life than trying to dream of being a performer.

I remember my Granny singing when I was a kid, hearing her sing in church, and I know [my husband Justin Moses’s] family background was much the same. So certainly a different kind of musical experience. But music has always been a big part of both my family story and Justin’s family story. And I was lucky enough to get to know all of his grandparents – he’s since lost three of them – but I was lucky to get to know them and my grandparents too. Not everybody gets that. So I feel super lucky. And yeah, I think inevitably those stories kind of wind up weaving their way into my songwriting.

How do you balance so many different but interconnected objectives – especially finding space to let out parts of yourself through your music?

I’ve been able to say yes to a lot of things, because [I’ve chosen] to say no to some other things and that feels rewarding because normally I’d be stressing out. So trying to think ahead and find the balance as a human, asking, “How can I be focused in the moment, not stack too many things on top of each other, and instead carve out the balance where I do have time to write, I do have time to record, and I do have time to tour?” Because I love all those things. In a perfect world, you make them exist in a cohesive way and that can inform what the art becomes on the other side of it, because I’ve given myself space to enjoy all these things in their own way, instead of just the constant chaos of trying to do five things at once.


Photo Credit: Bethany Brook Showalter & Spencer Showalter

You Gotta Hear This: New Music From Danny Roberts, Dallas Ugly, and More

The music release cycle marches on, bringing us to our first premiere roundup of March!

Below you’ll find new tracks and videos from artists like Big Love Car Wash, who take us on a tour of our collective subconscious with a bluegrassy-folky track, “Dream Journal.” Plus, mandolinist Danny Roberts – who you may know from The Grascals – pays tribute to two of his mandolin heroes with his new instrumental, “Lawson Sizemore.” And Dallas Ugly bemoan a bit too much indulgence and “sweets” with “Sugar Crash,” a deliciously saccharine number produced by Justin Frances from their upcoming album, See Me Now.

Country rocker Joel Timmons returns to his recent release, Psychedelic Surf Country, with a lyric video that tells the story of his dad burning piles of Christmas trees on “Just a Man,” complete with vintage 8mm family footage. Don’t miss singer-songwriter Grayson Jenkins turning over aging, mortality, and the constants of life on “Taxes & Time” with a charming video and a clean honky-tonk sound.

It’s all right here on BGS! Scroll for more, because You Gotta Hear This.

Big Love Car Wash, “Dream Journal”

Artist: Big Love Car Wash
Hometown: Austin, Texas
Song: “Dream Journal”
Album: Daydream
Release Date: March 14, 2025 (single); June 6, 2025 (album)

In Their Words: “For me, ‘Dream Journal’ is about a fork in the road, about making a pivotal decision. The decision that inspired this song was between attending law school and dedicating myself to music. At its heart though, ‘Dream Journal’ is about really listening to yourself. When you’re dreaming peacefully, where are you?” – David Rabinowicz, songwriter, guitar, lead vocals

Track Credits:
David Rabinowicz – Guitar, lead vocals, songwriter
Sol Chase – Mandolin, harmony vocals
Everett Wren – Fiddle, shaker
Taylor Turner – Double bass
Joseph Holguin, Arlyn Studios – Recording, mixing engineer
Andrew Oedel – Mastering engineer


Dallas Ugly, “Sugar Crash”

Artist: Dallas Ugly
Hometown: Nashville, Tennessee
Song: “Sugar Crash”
Album: See Me Now
Release Date: March 6, 2025 (single); April 18, 2025 (album)

In Their Words: “This song was inspired by the reliability of a low showing up after a high, specifically in a romantic setting. You know if you keep playing with fire you’re going to get burned, but it’s just so much fun. Besides, even when things are going well, falling for someone is a mix of fear and excitement. Sonically, we wanted to make this a sweet little candy bop and our producer, Justin Francis, nailed it with the warbley synth sounds he added. We also went for some cheekier arrangement choices to just really drive the playful aspect home. Hope this little twangy, twee song makes you dance!” – Libby Weitnauer

Track Credits:
Libby Weitnauer – Acoustic guitar, vocals
Owen Burton – Electric guitar, vocals
Eli Broxham – Bass
Brandon Combs – Drums, percussion
Justin Francis – Programming, percussion, acoustic guitar, keys


Grayson Jenkins, “Taxes & Time”

Artist: Grayson Jenkins
Hometown: Greenville, Kentucky
Song: “Taxes & Time”
Release Date: March 7, 2025

In Their Words: “‘Taxes & Time’ spilled out onto my notebook page early one morning after a restless night of sleep spent on an air mattress at a family member’s house. Nine times out of ten, those things go flat in the middle of the night – no fault to my hosts. This time, though, it also happened to be in the middle of the pandemic and one of the first times I had left home and my own bed in many months. I woke up at 5:00 am or so thinking about my grandfather, including a very distinct memory from my childhood of someone saying something to the effect of, ‘Papaw doesn’t travel outside of this many miles from home, because he has to get back to sleep in his bed.’ In about five minutes, I’d written the whole song with no melody or instrumentation in mind. This all happened around the time I turned 30 and it was cathartic to put my thoughts on paper about getting older, feeling and looking older, and thinking about what the important things in my life should be moving forward.” – Grayson Jenkins

Track Credits:
Grayson Jenkins – Songwriting, acoustic guitar, vocals
Paddy Ryan – Drums
Aaron Boehler – Bass
Jesse Aycock – Dobro
Fats Kaplin – Fiddle
Kevin Gordon – Backing vocals


Danny Roberts, “Lawson Sizemore”

Artist: Danny Roberts
Hometown: Nashville, Tennessee
Song: “Lawson Sizemore”
Release Date: March 7, 2025
Label: Mountain Home Music Company

In Their Words: “While I was putting together songs for this record I knew that I wanted to salute two of my favorite mandolin players – Doyle Lawson and Herschel Sizemore. Both of these men not only had an impact on me musically, but personally as well, and I wanted to pay tribute to them by writing a song that would show their influence on my playing and ‘Lawson Sizemore’ is it. I really enjoyed writing this tune and I hope I did two of my mandolin heroes justice with ‘Lawson Sizemore.'” – Danny Roberts

Track Credits:
Danny Roberts – Mandolin
Andrea Roberts – Bass
Tony Wray – Acoustic guitar, banjo
Jimmy Mattingly – Fiddle


Joel Timmons, “Just A Man”

Artist: Joel Timmons
Hometown: Folly Beach, SC
Song: “Just a Man”
Album: Psychedelic Surf Country
Release Date: February 7, 2025 (album); March 7, 2025(video)

In Their Words: “‘Just a Man’ is the true story of my early childhood introduction to pyromania. The lyrics tell the story (fairly accurately) of my father gathering a pile of Christmas trees in our backyard and setting it on fire, nearly burning down our house and neighborhood. Woven through this humorous recollection is the realization that my dad is ‘just a man.’ Though he seemed like a flame-wielding mythical god to me as a little boy, he was full of his own dreams, doubts, questions, hubris, and fears. I edited together the lyric video with some vintage 8mm movie film footage that my mother shot. The final result feels like an intimate home movie night and it’s a visual love letter to my dear dad, Clyde. The recording features fantastic fiddling from another sweet man that I love, Jason Carter.” – Joel Timmons

Video Credits: Videography by Carlin Timmons. Edited by Joel Timmons.


Photo Credit: Danny Roberts by Sandlin Gaither; Dallas Ugly by Betsy Phillips.

Basic Folk: Sierra Hull

(Editor’s Note: The entire BGS team would like to congratulate Basic Folk on 300 amazing episodes of the podcast! Celebrate #300, featuring GRAMMY nominee Sierra Hull as our guest, with us below.)

When mandolinist Sierra Hull was little, her dad told her she was really good “for a 10-year-old.” The older Hull knew Sierra had a fiery passion for the instrument and he knew exactly how to motivate his daughter. He went on to say that if she wanted to go to jams and porch-play for the rest of her life, she’d learned enough. He gave her realistic advice, saying if she wanted to dedicate her life to music, she would have to work really hard. Because “that 10-year-old cute thing is gonna wear off.” Sierra, who would draw pictures of herself playing at the Grand Ole Opry with Alison Krauss and doodle album covers with the Rounder Records logo, took his advice to heart and got to work.

LISTEN: APPLE • SPOTIFY • AMAZON • MP3

Since then, Hull has shared the stage with more heroes than one could count. She’s inspired a new generation of younger players, she’s released five albums, and she’s considered a master of the mandolin. Her new album, A Tip Toe High Wire, is set for release March 7. In our Basic Folk conversation Sierra reflects on how growing up in the small town of Byrdstown, Tennessee, shaped her musical identity alongside bluegrass, gospel, and family traditions. She shares memories of family gatherings filled with music featuring Aunt Betty and Uncle Junior, the profound influence of church hymns, and how these experiences continue to resonate in her playing and songwriting.

Sierra also discusses the significance of A Tip Toe High Wire, her first independent release, highlighting the freedom and growth that come with that independence. She emphasizes the importance of authenticity in her music, allowing herself to explore new sounds while remaining grounded in her bluegrass roots. Elsewhere in the episode, she opens up about her personal growth, the pressures of being labeled a child prodigy, and her journey toward embracing imperfection in her art. We also dive into what we’ll call her “Stevie Nicks Era” with the amazing cover art on the new record. Sierra enjoys playing with elaborate styles in her album artwork and red carpet looks (helloooo CMA Awards). With a candid perspective on the challenges of the music industry, she encourages listeners to find joy in the process while appreciating the beauty of vulnerability.


Photo Credit: Bethany Brook Showalter & Spencer Showalter

You Gotta Hear This: New Music From David Starr, Darren Nicholson, and More

For our final New Music Friday of February and as we look ahead to March, here are a half dozen brand new songs and videos you simply gotta hear.

Kicking us off, JD Clayton reminds himself and all of us that the speed of the internet, the news cycle, and social media is too damn fast. His new video reminds us of the power of “Slow & Steady” with a glitzy and gritty alt-Americana sound. A modern blues picking icon David Starr brings a new video for “Hole In The Page” as well, writing the book on lost love, lessons learned, and a liberal dose of longing with wailing organ and plenty of licks. Rounding out our videos this week is a frolic by Miss Georgia Peach, “Dusty,” that was inspired by her independent Maine Coon cat, Dusty Springfield, but ultimately celebrates autonomy and agency soundtracked by Americana meets Southern rock.

From the bluegrass realms, Darren Nicholson and band perform an original that Darren penned with Charles Humphrey (Songs From the Road Band). The pair regard their number, “Any Highway,” as a “modern classic” – and we think you’ll agree when you’ve heard this propulsive traveling song. Nicholson’s labelmate, Jaelee Roberts, can be found with a new track below, too. This gospel selection, “He’s Gone,” was written by Kelsi Harrigill (formerly of Flatt Lonesome) and features special guest vocalists Ricky Skaggs, Sharon White, and Cheryl White Jones joining Roberts.

You won’t want to miss a new single from new acoustic-infused Colorado string trio Salomé Songbird, who debut the lovely and contemplative “I’m Alright.” It’s a bit of a musical mantra, pushing through darkness and precipitous mental health to find strength with mandolin, violin, and guitar lending bluegrass and old-time touches.

It’s all right here on BGS and You Gotta Hear This!

JD Clayton, “Slow & Steady”

Artist: JD Clayton
Hometown: Fort Smith, Arkansas
Song: “Slow & Steady”
Album: Blue Sky Sundays
Release Date: February 28, 2025
Label: Rounder Records

In Their Words: “‘Slow & Steady’ is about a young carefree couple taking life easy in the summertime, living in the moment, fully content with living the slow life. My generation is crippled by depression and anxiety with me chief among them. We’re addicted to our phones and the attention we receive from strangers on the internet. I can’t go more than five minutes without checking to see if someone texted me or shared my post. I don’t want this for my life anymore. I want to change. I know things can be better! ‘Slow & Steady’ is more than a song, it’s a mindset. It’s a movement. I’m going to love and live in each moment. Slow and steady, easy does it. This is going to be the greatest summer of our lives.” – JD Clayton

Video Credits: Drifters Productions
Directed by Hannah Gray Hall.
Director of Photography – Ryan Mclemore


Miss Georgia Peach, “Dusty”

Artist: Miss Georgia Peach
Hometown: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Song: “Dusty”
Album: Class Out The Ass
Release Date: February 14, 2025
Label: Rum/Bar Records

In Their Words: “Technically, this song is about our feral, gorgeous Maine Coon cat, Dusty Springfield. The song practically wrote itself, following the opening hook, ‘Dusty’s goin’ out tonight,’ which came to me as she ran in looking perfectly happy and unworried after being gone for a number of days. The lyrics are for any wild independent beauty who can’t or won’t be tamed and knows what’s best for herself. She’s going out all night, doing exactly what she feels like doing, and despite your worries, she knows what’s what. She is mysterious and unknowable and incredibly fascinating. The music conveys love and frustration, confusion and devotion. The one left [at] home is the one going crazy and trying to figure out what’s going on, not experiencing the adventure Dusty is having. The video puts it in the context of a teenage girl living with her grandma in the country, testing her boundaries, wondering when her life will start. Like most teens, I felt trapped at home, ditching school and running wild at night with my friends. I was home in the morning and for dinner, but the in-between times were mine.” – Miss Georgia Peach

Track Credits:
Miss Georgia Peach – Vocals
Ruyter Suys – Guitar, backing vocals
Blaine Cartwright – Guitar
AJ Srubas – Fiddle
Mark Hendricks – Bass
Travis Ramin – Drums
Heather Parrish – Backing vocals

Video Credits: Directed and shot by Miss Georgia Peach.
Edited by Wendy Norton, Norton Video.


Darren Nicholson, “Any Highway”

Artist: Darren Nicholson
Hometown: Canton, North Carolina
Song: “Any Highway”
Release Date: February 28, 2025

In Their Words: “‘Any Highway’ is one of the first songs I ever wrote with Charles R. Humphrey III. Not only is it one of my favorites, but the No Joke Jimmy’s always had this one in the set list, so I felt I needed to get a good studio recording of it. It’s a story of a man who is so heartbroken by a free-spirited young lady he feels compelled to leave immediately. No plan, no direction, he just knows he has to go elsewhere. Sometimes, the best way to get over a heartache is by just getting to a place where you don’t have to stare it in the face it anymore.” – Darren Nicholson

“‘Any Highway’ is the first song Darren and I wrote. We had met years ago in Alaska while playing in separate bluegrass bands together. I was, and still am, a long time admirer of Darren’s singing, picking, and larger-than-life personality. These are qualities I look for in co-writers. In my opinion, the song itself is a historical fiction account of ‘the one that got away.’  The song style pays tribute to the bluegrass greats that perfected the hard-driving slick style of playing. I think it’s a really cool song, and it’s been the start of a fruitful co-writing friendship with Darren. ‘Any Highway’ is a modern day classic!” – Charles Humphrey III

Track Credits:
Darren Nicholson – Mandolin, lead vocal
Zach Smith – Upright bass
Colby Laney – Acoustic guitar
Deanie Richardson – Fiddle
Kristin Scott Benson – Banjo
Tony Creasman – Drums
Kevin Sluder – Harmony vocal
Jennifer Nicholson – Harmony vocal


Jaelee Roberts, “He’s Gone”

Artist: Jaelee Roberts
Hometown: Nashville, Tennessee
Song: “He’s Gone”
Release Date: February 28, 2025

In Their Words: “As the songs were coming together for my new album, I was still in need of a gospel song to record so I reached out to my very dear friend and mentor, Kelsi Harrigill, to see if she had written anything recently. She sent a few songs to me that I really liked but none of them felt like ‘the one.’ However, a few days later while she was vacuuming, she was inspired to write the song ‘He’s Gone’ and I knew after the first listen it was absolutely the one for me to record. This gospel song tells the incredible story of how Jesus was crucified, buried, and rose again. ‘Praise God the tomb’s empty, He’s Gone.’

“I am so happy that I got to record this special song and thrilled to be joined by amazing musicians: Ron Block (banjo), Stuart Duncan (fiddle), Cody Kilby (guitar), Andy Leftwich (mandolin), Justin Moses (dobro), and Byron House (bass/producer). To top it off and make a dream come true, three very special people in my life came to the studio to sing with me – Sharon White Skaggs, Cheryl White Jones, and Ricky Skaggs. I feel very blessed and honored to have their voices on ‘He’s Gone.’ I love this song so much and I am thankful for the message of ‘He’s Gone’ and I hope that each of you will love it, too.” – Jaelee Roberts


Salomé Songbird, “I’m Alright”

Artist: Salomé Songbird
Hometown: Colorado
Song: “I’m Alright”
Release Date: February 28, 2025

In Their Words: “Broadly, ‘I’m Alright’ is about being stuck someplace and needing to escape. It is full of imagery from every place I’ve ever been desperate to leave. There are a lot of references to following the sun or heading west, which would be a return home in my mind. On a personal level, this song is about suicide. I hope anyone listening who is also feeling that kind of darkness feels a little less alone. There is always someone who wants to help you and there is always another door that’s not that one.” – Joy Adams, songwriter, mandolin, vocals

“‘I’m Alright’ is a song that has been an important part of finding our voice and an audience that voice resonates with during live performance over the last couple years. I’m glad it’s now one of the first songs we’re releasing as a band.” – Bryan Dubrow, guitar

Track Credits:
Joy Adams – Songwriter, vocals, mandolin
Ariele Macadangdang – Vocals, violin
Bryan Dubrow – Guitar


David Starr, “Hole In The Page”

Artist: David Starr
Hometown: Cedaredge, Colorado
Song: “Hole In The Page”
Album: Must Be Blue
Release Date: January 24, 2025 (song); February 28, 2025 (video)
Label: Quarto Valley Records

In Their Words: “I am so excited to share my first release with Quarto Valley Records! It’s kind of ironic, because this song was the last song written for the album that happened by accident. The idea came about because of something I misheard on a radio show, thinking they said ‘hole in the page,’ which got the wheels turning. While I can’t remember what they actually said, I am so grateful for that spark of creativity. It’s funny that this song then turned into being the one to kick off the rest of the project. I love the energy of the track and that it packs a punch. Jason Lee Denton and I have collaborated on a number of videos together and I knew he would knock this one out of the park. I love the direction he took, it is the perfect visual representation of the song!” – David Starr

Track Credits:
David Starr – Acoustic guitar, vocals
Greg Morrow – Drums
Jeff King – Electric guitar
Mark Prentice – Bass, keyboards
Michelle Nicolo Prentice – Background vocals
Joe Starr – Electric guitar

Video Credits: Jason Lee Denton, Solar Cabin Productions


Photo Credit: David Starr by Jason Lee Denton; Darren Nicholson by Jeff Smith.

Big Richard, Big Feelings – Their New Album is a Delicious ‘Girl Dinner’

The members of Big Richard – Joy Adams (vocals, cello, banjo, octave mandolin), Eve Panning (vocals, fiddle), Hazel Royer  (vocals, bass, guitar), and Bonnie Sims (vocals, mandolin, guitar) – were seasoned studio and gigging musicians when they met for their first rehearsal. Familiar with one another from Colorado’s thriving music scene, their initial gathering was the result of an offer to assemble a band and perform at McAwesome Festival 2021 in Castle Rock.

Musical and personal chemistry, apparent during practice, was also a given onstage, solidly reinforced by an outpouring of support from fans. There was also a flip side – backlash to the band’s suggestive name and often-bawdy stage banter. This, it turns out, created even more incentive to continue. Big Richard was officially a band.

Their wealth of experience across musical genres – bluegrass, country, jazz, classical, rock, and beyond – opened the door for writing, recording, and performing music that pushes beyond parameters while remaining firmly planted in tradition. It shows on their new album, Girl Dinner (released January 24), produced by the band and recorded with Colorado musician and friend Eric Wiggs at his Vermillion Road Studio.

Technically their second release, following 2022’s Live from Telluride, Girl Dinner represents several firsts for the band: their first studio release, first recording of all-original material, and first with Royer, who joined the ensemble a year ago. According to the musicians, Girl Dinner demonstrates the many sides of Big Richard, everything from stripped-down, quiet instrumentation and harmonies to the blazing solos that define their performances.

When was it obvious that Big Richard would be more than a one-festival project?

Joy Adams: It wasn’t really in the first rehearsal. It was in the reception to the show that we played. Obviously, bluegrass is a jam-based genre; it’s common to sit down with your friends and play tunes. But we felt a crazy chemistry in the way we sang and played together that was apparent from the very first song we played at Bonnie’s house. When we played McAwesome Fest, for starters, our set got rained out, so we didn’t get to play the whole set. We were upset about that. We were looking for another gig just so we could get to the other songs. And we also had a bad reaction to us, too. There were people who were very upset about our name and how crass we were onstage and we got some initial hate mail after that first show. That was the moment – in my head, anyway – where we were like, “Oh, we have something here. If we can ruffle some feathers with this band, we’ve got to do this. This is an important thing.”

When and how did you build the band?

Bonnie Sims: We played that first gig in May 2021, our second gig in September 2021, and we hit the ground running in the beginning of 2022. We booked [Colorado festivals] RockyGrass and WinterWonderGrass right out of the gate, and that gave us a lot of fuel in our tank to want to invest in the creative side, start writing together, start rehearsing more, and really invest in the music, because we had these exciting opportunities to be a part of. Not long after we booked those things ourselves, we signed with Crossover Touring. Our buddy Chandler Holt has been our booking agent from the beginning and has been a huge part of helping us get to lots of festivals and play fun rooms.

Eve Panning: That first year or so was an unexpected influx of gigs. We did a ton of touring and I feel like we were kind of playing catch-up. It’s been really fun in this last year. We’ve all settled into the band a little bit more, and it’s been fun to hear the songs that everybody’s bringing and spend a lot of time working on those. You can hear that in the new album. Live From Telluride had some originals, but we were doing a lot of covers because we were so new as a band. This new album is all originals, and it’s been fun to explore that side of things as well.

How have the sound and dynamic changed since Hazel joined you?

JA: The band has changed so much. Hazel is wonderful. Her attitude is fantastic. She’s an incredible musician who has brought the level of the band up a lot. The arrangements have gotten better, the groove is tighter, and the overall balance of band vibes is wonderful. It’s everything all of us could ever have dreamed of, and I blame Hazel for that entirely. She’s such a lovely person to be around, she writes incredible songs that are deep and moving and exciting, and we’re so lucky to have her in the band. She really saved us.

BS: I agree. Hazel brings such a strong singing voice. It’s really fun to lean into the power she brings vocally, intertwine with that power, and lose ourselves in it. And her original songs are incredible. It’s a natural elevation of maturing as a group and playing together. This is year three going on to year four for the band. It’s a lot different. The pace has been incredible as far as how much time we’re spending making music together. It’s very much like a pressure cooker. It has an effect on the music itself, so the sound has evolved immensely and continues to evolve in an exciting way.

Hazel Royer: Thank you, everybody. That’s so nice. When I joined the band, everyone was, “We want to work. We want to try new things and learn new songs.” We spent two months rehearsing before we played our first gig with me on bass. We looked at the music and we became a band before playing the shows. There was an emphasis on learning new material, and there was a really good excuse to do that because there was a new member and no gigs for a couple months, so we had the space to learn new things. I’m really grateful that I got to be a part of that.

EP: When you only have four people onstage and it’s all acoustic instruments, when 25 percent of the band changes, that’s really significant. That means the sound is definitely going to change. But, like everyone said, Hazel has such a powerful voice, she’s such an accomplished musician, so it’s felt great. It’s felt like a wonderful step up.

HR: I was super-lucky because everyone in this band wanted me to exist as myself. That was the primary thing: “We want you to sing. We want you to write your own songs and bring them to the band.” That’s rare for a new person – joining a band and being like, “We want what you do as embedded immediately.” Additionally, we have a lot of crossover, musically, that we all can draw from. I grew up playing bluegrass and old-time music, and these guys are steeped in that. I also like pop music, and everybody likes that, and I had classical studies, and there’s two people who are very accomplished classical musicians, so there was a lot of crossover that made the integration of myself into the band easier than it could have been.

Let’s talk about the album – the songwriting process, song selection, your goals going into the studio.

BS: Our goal was to present something different than what we presented on our live album, which, like Eve said, was mostly covers. We recorded Live From Telluride after being a band for right at the one-year mark. It was very much the first generation of material. This is our debut studio album, but it’s our sophomore offering as far as the material, in my opinion, because it’s the second stage of the band’s development as far as it’s all original. There’s introspective and thoughtful moments within the songwriting. We have those at shows, but they’re always intermixed with high-energy, raging things where you can hop around and have a really intense, energetic experience. The album, I feel, offers up the soft side of Big Richard, in a way. We have this saying, “Big Richard, big feelings,” and the album is representative of that side of the band, which is, again, usually balanced with this different vibe live. So we took that out and just are doing the original stuff on the record, which is exciting.

Did you write deliberately to explore that softer side, or did the direction become obvious as you were writing?

JA: We didn’t intentionally write a soft album, and I hesitate to call it a soft album, because there are some burning fiddle tunes that Eve wrote and there’s a couple of aggressive songs, mostly coming out of Bonnie’s pen. The album is all over the map. The more lyrical songs were collected over the course of a year playing together. We love these songs so much and they got such a good reception at all of our shows. We did play them out pretty thoroughly before we recorded them, so it was a matter of collecting our favorite songs that we felt hit the emotional depths of “Big Richard, big feelings.” We were really proud of these songs.

HR: To go off of what Joy said, they’re our favorites. We picked them because we all were very passionate and love those songs. There are some soft songs on the album, but there’s a wide variety of things going on there. It is different than our live show by a significant margin. The album, in my view, is a piece of something that’s made out of love. We love this music and we created these arrangements together.

Once the songs were selected, what was the sequencing process?

EP: We had an initial sequence, and then we were limited by how many songs we could put on each side of the vinyl, so we had to take our original idea and rework it. The album starts and ends with songs about saying goodbye, and that hits; that feels like a powerful moment.

HR: We looked at this group of songs as a set list. We wanted to create a listening experience similar to something we would provide at a show, like, how do these songs flow into each other? Are there seamless transitions that we’re able to utilize? That’s how we looked at sequencing the album. And also separating saying goodbye a million times. At the top and the end of the album was important.

BS: Vinyl presents an opportunity for sequencing to have more of a presence again. With digital consumption, people just click what they want and add it to their own playlist. No shade; do your thing with your playlist, but with vinyl you’re going to probably sit and listen to it in the order that we put it in, because that’s the style of listening for a record. So it’s nice to have that opportunity with vinyl.

Tell us about the recording process.

JA: We recorded this album in May 2024, and we had the last master submitted in September or October. Vinyl production takes a little while, so we got the vinyl back in December, which was really exciting. Mixing and mastering is a crazy process that takes so long. That’s the part I’m very obsessed with. I was, unfortunately, the squeaky wheel the whole time, being like, “The bass needs to be half a dB [decibel] higher in this song, in this one section, but not all the other sections.” That was all me. I love the process of recording. We’re not a band that plays a song a hundred times – thank heavens for that. We tend to get things within five takes. Some solos got replayed or re-recorded, little things that got added, studio magic. I’m very proud that this album required basically no tuning and really simple edits.

EP: We also did a lot of tracks without a click. We didn’t go into the studio with a plan as far as which ones we were going to record to a click and which ones we were going to just play. But I think it keeps a lot of life in those songs as well, playing them like we do with a little bit of breadth to them.

HR: This might go without saying, but we tracked the whole thing together. We made basic tracks and there was some soloing, editing, but that was it. Just iso booths, but all four of us live.

The album was self-produced. What does the word “producer” mean to you? Did you experiment much or make changes to the songs while recording them?

JA: Production for this kind of band, to me, means deciding how we were going to record it, which is a very big discussion: are you all in the same room together, are you recording separate, are you recording to a click track, etc. And then, of course, trying to democratically decide what take has the most musical power, because you’re going to sacrifice a little perfection somewhere for the sake of something that’s riveting. That’s always the case. And then making decisions about mixing and mastering. In some ways it would have been nice to have had an external source of nature in the room, like another producer to help us make those decisions, but it was incredibly empowering to make them ourselves, because we have dragged these songs through both the mud and the sky on the touring road.

We had really figured out and dialed in the arrangements in front of thousands of people. We knew exactly what we wanted out of these songs, and so it was liberating to be able to put those down in our way and not have to fight a producer on some decisions. As far as things changing in the studio, not a whole lot changed. We were all playing the instruments that we do. Sometimes Hazel plays guitar or bass, and so we had the ability to have both bass and guitar on some of her tunes, which was really effective. That was one thing that was different than how we usually do it live.

HR: To go off what Joy said, I think the production, as far as the musical side of things goes, really did happen on the road and in rehearsals. We came into the studio knowing our songs, exactly how they go, what we want where, and what we’ve tried and tested a billion times, instead of coming up with arrangements in a studio environment.

The Colorado music scene has been very supportive. How great a part have those audiences played in taking the band to the next level?

BS: The audience has been instrumental in every step and every piece of our success. They are the success, because if they weren’t there, buying tickets and wanting to be at shows, we wouldn’t have a reason to be out touring. We’re grateful to everybody who comes to shows. When we come back to our Colorado hometown vibe, it really keeps us going. It keeps the light on for us, because those are the crowds that lift us up energetically and have been there from day one. Coming back to those audiences fills our tank in a real way.


Find more Big Richard here.

Photo Credit: Jason Innes

The Rambunctious Wisconsin Americana of Them Coulee Boys

Some of more commonly associated marvels of the Badger State are salty cheese curds, verdant farmsteads, and acrimoniously freezing winters – as well as a whole bunch of simple roadside attractions and signature small-town revelries. It’s the adopted home of Harry Houdini and John Muir and the birthplace of a memorable host of charming eccentrics, including Orson Welles and Thornton Wilder.

Soren Staff, lead vocalist of Wisconsin’s homegrown and free-range Them Coulee Boys, was born in the rolling hills of the country. He has spent ample time explaining the sort of commonsensical people and curiously provincial patois that make the state endearing.

“A coulee is a valley with a river in it,” said Staff. “We’ve had to clear up that name every single step of the way.”

Staff hails from just outside of Taylor, Wisconsin, population 400, and he attended high school in Milwaukee. He and his four bandmates now call Eau Claire home, a small city typifying and sharing their Midwest values and sensibilities: an industrious, approachable, and self-effacing kind of existence.

“People in Eau Claire care about art and music and there is a neighborly goodness to life here,” said Staff. “Wisconsin is not a state that people associate with a lot of luminaries coming from, but I like to think we are doing our part, pulling our weight.”

Them Coulee Boys – who are readying a brand new album, their fifth, No Fun in the Chrysalis (set for release February 28 via Some Fun Records), produced by Grammy winner Brian Joseph – are a bunch of small town Wisconsinites who have found a common place to live, where locals have embraced them with joviality and applause. Banjo player Beau Janke comes from Trempealeau, a beautiful village on the Mississippi River. Soren and his brother, Jens Staff, a mandolin player, come from the Taylor area. Bass player Neil Krause was born and raised in Chippewa Falls. Drummer Stas Hable is a native of Eau Claire and a graduate of the University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire’s music studies program.

Staff and Janke met at Camp Chetek, a Christian camping ministry in northwestern Wisconsin. The two camp counselors played music all day long, from the time of morning prayer, through the daily worship services in the afternoon, to evenings spent entertaining teenagers around the campfire. The following year, Jens joined Soren and Beau.

“That’s where we cut our teeth and cultivated our chemistry with each other,” said Soren. “We met at that camp and it has blossomed into a whole career.”

A few years later, Them Coulee Boys formed and the forceful folk-Americana band has lasted 11 years, which could be lauded as an eternity in the seemingly short-lived music business. Indeed, the music of Them Coulee Boys is grounded in their friendship and rooted in their desire to express a walloping good time. Such closeness, conviviality, and simple gratitude elevate the music to higher stages.

“We care about each other,” said Staff. “I trust and love these guys, personally and musically. Still, it took me time to trust in bringing an unfinished song to the others and to realize that their influences and skills and personalities will serve the song best.”

Staff was exposed to a wide variety of music in his youth, from classic rock to ’70s disco and pop, but it was the unaffected, everyday-man songs that he heard on COW97 (a Western Wisconsin country channel and his grandfather’s favorite) that created the largest impression. He was struck by the simple yet deep songs of Roger Miller and Tom T. Hall and songwriting prowess of granite and stone immortals such as Johnny Cash and Merle Haggard.

Staff, who works part-time at a local print shop, has a fondness for the contemplative capacities of the singer-songwriter experience. With mirth in his eyes, he still attends open mic night at The Plus in Eau Claire on Tuesdays, which he has done for about 10 years. But one of the most special things about Them Coulee Boys is that within the group there exists a worship of many varieties of music. Janke was raised on the thunder of Led Zeppelin, which pushes the band’s sound to an altogether different space, allowing them to turn it up to the heights of exuberance, to blaze the woods on fire.

“Finding the balance between introspective songwriting and the energy, bombast, and power of a rock and roll band, there is a good tension there. Striking a balance in that tension carves out a sound that we want to make.”

Them Coulee Boys started in a basement and, quite honestly, they never expected to be out of that basement. They played their first gig at a ski lodge in northern Wisconsin, the only ones seated and listening their parents and girlfriends. Then they signed up for the 10 p.m. to 2 a.m. spell at as many bars in the state as possible. Once, the guys played four hours of music in four separate bars in four small towns, for four nights in a row. The total haul was $1,000, split between four musicians. At that time, Staff considered their take a grand success. In 2016, the group started taking its energetic, impulsive brand of Wisconsin-Americana outside the state in earnest.

Virtually all of the group’s songs begin with lyrics, melodies, and chord structures that first arise in Staff’s head. He comes up with something rough and ready, presents it to the others, and they turn it into something utilizable, a playable song.

“My biggest job as a songwriter is to be a gatherer and be open to ideas,” said Staff. “I let images run through my head throughout the day, waiting for the words that make me want to keep writing. I’m seeking a line to build off of. If it is a good line it will stick around. If you are looking all of the time, it becomes easier to draw from that when you sit down to write something.”

Staff is pleased with the results of No Fun in the Chrysalis, the band’s fifth album. Rambunctious, playful, and wonderfully inspired, the recording is submerged in the mystery of transformation; the relentless blitz of change the most dominant theme of the songs.

“There has been massive change in my life and the other guys,” said Staff. “Kids. Marriage. Switching jobs. There is tension in change and eventually there has to be acceptance. … The first song, change is a question. But by the last song, there is an answer to it.”

The album reflects a few of those inner and interpersonal changes within the band, an encapsulation of their growth spurts and plodding development.

“Musically, we’ve embraced that we are not a string band,” Staff continued. “We have drums, electric instruments, banjos, mandolins. We’ve pushed our sound forward into different spaces, but we’ve also accepted that we come from a string band background, and could harken back to older records. There are contemplative jams. But there is also a stomping song about making out.”

No Fun in the Chrysalis reveals not only a tumultuous, change-filled time in the individual and collective lives of the musicians, but it serves as a lively expression from a band somewhere in the middle phase of their journey.

“On one hand, we are still trying to prove ourselves,” said Staff. “Though on the other hand, we have a decade worth of experience, and it shows. We’ve come a long way from the basement and hope to have many miles ahead.”


Photo Credit: Kenzie Trezise

Combining Classical and Bluegrass, Scroggins & Rose Improvise and Inspire on ‘Speranza’

Acutely expressive, profoundly innovative, and ceaselessly gripping, Scroggins & Rose are masters of sonic storytelling. The project consists of Alisa Rose (violin) and Tristan Scroggins (mandolin), both virtuosic talents with a sprawling list of credits each in their own right. While Scroggins primarily forays in the bluegrass sphere and Rose spent her musical upbringing largely studying classical music, the two alchemize a blend of genres to achieve their distinct style.

The duo’s third collection, Speranza, relays a moving dialogue between fiddle and mandolin, drawing upon a diverse range of musical influences to weave together a thoughtful assortment of colors and textures. Initial ideas for the project began back in the quarantine days of 2020, and Speranza – which consists of six immersive instrumentals, a dynamic assortment of original and familiar tunes – now arrives nearly five years later in a moment where its intonations of hope feel just as crucial.

BGS had the pleasure of sitting down with Scroggins & Rose to discuss their origins, influences, and the percolation of their most recent release.

Congratulations on the album release! To start us off, could you talk about how the two of you came into playing together?

Alisa Rose: We both taught at NimbleFingers, which is a camp in British Columbia.

Tristan Scroggins: It’s a bluegrass week of workshops that has been going on for a couple decades. I always describe it on stage as “sleepaway camp for adults who want to learn how to play the banjo and drink.”

AR: There’s a really nice feel at that camp. Tristan was in a band with his dad at the time, so I did some shows with them there. Then one night, I remember the two of us improvising by a picnic table and we just had a really nice musical chemistry where we follow each other’s ideas around. Immediately it felt like, “Oh, this is a good musical fit.”

TS: At that time I was playing with my dad in Jeff Scroggins & Colorado, and we were touring full-time. So I just ended up in California a lot and I would tack on extra time to come hang out with Alisa. And we started writing music and playing shows. I live in Nashville now, so these days it’s more of a deliberate effort when I come out to collaborate.

At this point you’ve been able to flesh out that musical chemistry over the course of three collections. What would you say unites your musicality or differentiates it?

AR: I think when we improvise, it’s playful and creative and experimental – we’re not afraid to leave what may be reasonable behind, and sometimes that takes us to good places, and sometimes we fall on our faces. We also have a similar sense of rhythm and how we respond to it. It allows us to improvise freely because we feel rhythm in the same way. So that’s where we unify, but we have really different musical backgrounds.

Could you tell me more about that?

AR: Sure. Growing up I played a little bit of fiddle, but mostly I grew up in the classical world. I was a Suzuki kid, so I learned by ear initially, which I think has allowed me to play a lot of different music, but I was learning primarily classical violin growing up. Tristan grew up very much in the bluegrass world, and I’ve studied bluegrass and I’ve played in bluegrass bands, but I still have a different sense of melody and expressiveness. I think a lot about how to make music really expressive emotionally and I play with timings – those two things are less common in the bluegrass world.

TS: I think it’s been really valuable for me, generally musically and especially in the context of this project, to be exposed to those different ways of thinking about playing. I grew up playing with my dad, and in mandolin contests just learning how to play bluegrass, which does instigate this question of, is bluegrass expressive or not? I think it is sort of, but it’s so different from how classical music is expressive or how jazz is expressive. I’ve had to work a lot on navigating that challenge, because for me, I didn’t go to school at all for music. So much of how I play is very instinctual and this project often has me figuring out how to adapt those instincts in order to have more options, especially since there’s just two of us. We have to really be on the same page a lot of the time and work together to fill in spaces or leave holes where we want them to be – they have to line up, and it’s really obvious if they don’t.

Speranza does an excellent job at combining those classical and bluegrass sensibilities to achieve expression while still leaning into roots-like melodies. Can you tell me about the impetus behind your latest release? What drove you to create this third collection?

AR: So our first collection, Grana, was very improvised and we were a new duo. Basically we set out to make a demo – we wanted to record, like, three tunes and get some gigs. We got an Airbnb, rented some recording equipment, had our awesome engineer friend set it up for us, and we just hit record over and over for a weekend. By the end it seemed like it was an album, so that’s how that one came to be. Very improvised, very sort of exploratory. There were like 1000 takes of everything. Well, not actually 1000 because we didn’t have that long, but there was definitely a sort of trial and error of figuring out what we wanted to create.

And then for the second album, Curios, we worked out everything. We rearranged everything and really sought to emphasize the strength of melodies. A lot of that album was about making the melodies come out. To me, it’s also an exploration of different sound colors. We worked with Wes Corbett on that one and he helped bring that out in that album. We really tried to shape each tune into a little story, so they’re more composed. Some have solo sections, but they’re more like little pieces and arches – I mean, I would call them miniatures, but really they’re sort of standard length for bluegrass. In the classical world they might be considered miniatures– little, crafted, sparkly gems.

But we put [Curios] out in the pandemic, which was very anticlimactic. We were supposed to have a release tour and we worked really hard on that album for a long time. We had received a great grant from FreshGrass and were able to do a lot of things in the way we wanted. We worked with Dave Sinko as our engineer, who was awesome, and recorded in this pretty church in Nashville with Egyptian stained glass.

So the third one, Speranza, is more organic. We’ve grown as a duo in terms of creating, so we decided that instead of writing a whole record of stuff we would write and record as we went, or write and improvise as we went, and do some of both. So I believe this album combines the freedom of the first album and the shape and craft of the second album. And the material for Speranza came out of the pandemic – that was such a crazy time. Life seems sort of normal now, but a lot of the tunes started in that time and then we finished them once we could get back together.

TS: I think that in a lot of ways Speranza feels very shaped by the reality of the pandemic, 2020, things getting shut down – the first stuff that we worked on remotely, because we had to. It feels wild that we’ve been working on this for years now. It’s funny, similarly to the pandemic, it doesn’t feel like that was five years ago. We recorded it over different sessions and then mixed it over different sessions.

AR: “Pandemic Buddy” and “Reaper” are the darkest ones – those I did write in like that first month of the pandemic, but I just came up with the beginning idea and then as a duo, over two or three or four visits, we finished writing the pieces together. We’re often coming up with ideas, kind of sitting with them, and then recording voice memos and listening to them. It takes us a fair amount of time to do it and we really flesh out the arrangement and how our parts fit together in person. That tends to be pretty time-intensive. Basically we’re writing the pieces, but we’re memorizing them at the same time, with space for improv – everything is fluid, but the basic composition is pretty worked out. So our compositional process is pretty spacious and lengthy.

What was inspiring you during the composition of these pieces? Any art that you were ingesting or other cultural touchstones of during that moment?

AR: In the beginning of the pandemic, Tristan did a tune challenge, which is where some of these songs started. There was a word prompt every day to write a tune about. For example, “Reaper” began with the prompt “death.” “Pandemic Buddy” was for the prompt “friend.” It was a really nice way to channel energy at the beginning of the pandemic, when everything was crazy. I spent hours every day writing these tunes and trying to get a good video, and I think I got a little better at them as I went.

TS: I mean, it’s sort of an obvious one, but we talk a lot about Mike Marshall and Darol Anger. It’s the same mando and violin pairing, but I love listening to them and listening to other people who do this kind of new acoustic music/composing. I spend a lot of time in Nashville with Wes Corbett. Wes produced our second album, but he’s also a friend of mine, and I helped him with publicity for his first album, which has a lot of really beautifully written instrumental pieces.

It’s interesting – we spent so much time working on this in chunks and that was a very different part of my brain than the part of that was working very hard on, like, Texas-style fiddle tunes. Those weren’t crossing over, exactly. I think rather than being influenced by something specific, it’s more that I try to cultivate something within myself by listening to both stuff I like and new stuff. Absorbing all of that, letting it ferment inside, and then figuring out how to express that all together, rather than trying to emulate any one thing.

AR: I tend to think that when composing, everything you’ve ever listened to, everything that ever resonated with you and definitely anything you’ve ever played with your body or had in your body – whether you danced to it, or you physically played it – is a part of your musical sensibility. I don’t know what I was listening to when I was writing these tunes, but I definitely love Darol Anger and Mike Marshall. I also love Schubert string quartets, I love Beethoven piano sonatas, and I love Debussy piano music – I love a lot of different kinds of music, and I think all of that is part of what comes out. That’s all part of what’s in my head when I’m conceiving of new material.


Photo Credit: Lenny Gonzalez