(Editor’s Note: Only Vans with Bri Bagwell is the latest addition to the BGS Podcast Network! Read more about the podcast coming on board here. Find our episode archive here.)
On this week’s episode of the podcast, host Bri Bagwell is joined by Americana music icon and former member of the legendary Texas band Eleven Hundred Springs, Matt Hillyer. Matt is one of the funniest people alive and the two reminisce on hilarious shows, MusicFest at Steamboat (of course…), and talk about his brand new album, Bright Skyline, out now on State Fair Records.
Whether you’re desperately scrambling for a karaoke number or seeking an anthem to unite your politically-opposed family this election season, Old Crow Medicine Show’s 2004 hit “Wagon Wheel” has been a safe bet for nearly two decades.
However, despite its widespread appeal, we’ve curated a list of scenarios where this ubiquitous ditty might do more harm than good. Here are five times you should firmly resist the urge to play it:
At the North American Cartographer’s Convention
Suggesting a westward journey through the Cumberland Gap will land a trucker in Johnson City, Tennessee is geographic heresy that will incite blind fury from the map-making community. Johnson City lies east, you directionally-challenged jackwagon. Prepare for fisticuffs.
During Daycare Center Staff Training
Regaling childcare workers with tales of rocking children “any way you feel” in “the wind and the rain” is a surefire way to get your facility’s license revoked.
As the Climactic Closing Argument in the Luciano Crime Family’s RICO Trial
Defending your allegedly innocent client by randomly bursting into a tune about boxcar-hopping and ramblin’ is a strategy that will absolutely undermine their chances of avoiding jail time. Your client is already a flight risk — don’t give them any ideas.
Over the Commlink During a Navy SEAL Covert Op
It turns out that the terrorists can win against an elite force’s meticulously-planned stealth mission when this ill-timed, rousing chorus echoes through the halls of whatever compound they are infiltrating.
At a Funeral for Your Stepdad Who Died Getting Crushed by His Own Station Wagon
You never liked your mom’s third husband Keith, but kicking off your eulogy by cheerfully strumming “Headed down South to the land of the pines” might miss the solemnity mark. Especially since it was an actual wagon wheel that took him.
Greg Hess is a comedy writer and performer in Los Angeles. His work has been featured in The American Bystander, The Onion, Shouts & Murmurs, Points in Case, and he cohosts the hit satirical podcast MEGA.
It’s a serendipitously Canada-filled day on You Gotta Hear This, where singer-songwriter Rose Cousins brings us a brand new track, “Forget Me Not,” with a beautiful accompanying visualizer, plus Alex Mason impressively performs “Broken Bottles” live from a canoe, and Bob Sumner and posse line-dance it up in a new video for “Motel Room.”
That’s not all, though, as we’ve got alt-country, bluegrass, and more from the southern side of that border, too. Don’t miss Reckless Kelly performing “Keep Lookin’ Down The Road” in a brand new, self-shot video that features gorgeous landscapes and stunning drone footage. Derek Vanderhorst brings us the title track to his upcoming album, Be Kind, as well, with a ringer cast of collaborators including Steve Poltz.
To round out our collection this week, we’re re-sharing two premieres from earlier in the week on the site. The Doohickeys brought us zombie-fied Good Country with “Rein It In Cowboy” and virtuosic pickers Steven Moore and Jed Clark paid tribute to what would have been Frank Wakefield’s 90th birthday with their rendition of “New Camptown Races.”
It’s all right here on BGS and, to be perfectly honest, You Gotta Hear This!
Rose Cousins, “Forget Me Not”
Artist:Rose Cousins Hometown: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada Song: “Forget Me Not” Release Date: June 28, 2024 (single) Label: Nettwerk Music Group
In Their Words: “‘Forget Me Not’ is the romance of spring unfolding into summer as it pulls us into its presence. Nature asking us to pay attention and come along. Spring is my favourite season and I’ve now gotten to see it four times in a row in the same place which touring kept me from doing for years. It’s been like falling in love in a new way with an old flame.” – Rose Cousins
Reckless Kelly, “Keep Lookin’ Down The Road”
Artist:Reckless Kelly Hometown: Austin, Texas Song: “Keep Lookin’ Down The Road” Album:The Last Frontier Release Date: September 13, 2024 (album) Label: No Big Deal Records
In Their Words: “‘Keep Lookin’ Down The Road’ is a reflection of the past and an appreciation for the present, but most importantly, it’s an optimistic look ahead. I wrote it with my brother Gary and our buddy Jeff Crosby during our annual songwriting retreat that we jokingly refer to as the ‘hitscation.’ I came up with the line on the way there. sang a few lines into my voice recorder, and we worked out the rest over the next couple of days. Once we were in the studio, I chopped up a couple of verses and used the best lines to shorten it up a bit to match the theme of the record, which is, in a nutshell, ‘Don’t bore us, get to the chorus.’
“As technology advances by the second, I’ve wondered for a while how close to a pro-shot music video I could film using just an iPhone and a drone. Since the expense of filming a music video can sometimes outweigh its visibility, I decided to find out. Using the limited videography and editing skills I’d picked up filming the pandemic-inspired ‘Music from the Mountains’ and ‘Quarantine Kitchen’ shows, I set up time lapses of sunsets, sent the drone up to capture areal views of the mountains in my high desert backyard, and tried to time sunrises and sunsets for the cringiest part – standing in a field of sagebrush all alone, Uncle Rico style, filming myself singing and playing the song in front of a tripod. Luckily, my locations were so remote that nobody drove by and saw this old man making selfie videos like some 14-year-old influencer.
“I shot a lot of B roll road scenes, filmed at an old junkyard in the woods, waterfalls, national monuments, and in huge valleys surrounded by mountains on all sides. I tried to use the scenery as the main focus and also borrowed my brother Gary’s old Dodge truck to match the timeless vibe I was going for. It was a lot of work and took a lot more time than I thought it would, but it was fun and it turned out pretty cool, and I have a newfound appreciation for why these things cost so much. I’m not sure if I matched the quality of a high-end production, but for the cost of a tank of gas or two it’s close enough for RK!” – Willy Braun
Track Credits: Written by Willy Braun, Gary Braun (Micky & The Motorcars) and Jeff Crosby.
Wily Braun – Lead vocals, rhythm guitar, harmonica, percussion Cody Braun – Fiddle, harmony vocals, mandolin, tenor guitar, synth, percussion Jay Nazz – Drums, percussion Joe Miller – Bass guitar Geoff Queen – Lead electric guitar, pedal steel guitar Bukka Allen – Hammond B3 organ, piano, harmonium Kelley Mickwee – Harmony vocals
Produced by Jonathan Tyler, Cody Braun, Willy Braun. Engineered by Joseph Holguin. Mixed by Jacob Sciba, Cody Braun, Jonathan Tyler. Mastered by Jacob Sciba. Recorded at Arlyn Studios, Austin, Texas. Additional recording at Clyde’s VIP Room, Austin, Texas.
Video Credit: Produced, directed, filmed, and edited by Willy Braun. Filmed on location in Idaho.
In Their Words: “‘Broken Bottles’ is a song about how when memories form, especially when we’re younger, they can take on an almost mythical quality in our imaginations and dreams. Then as we grow older and that spell of innocence is broken, we leave them behind, only to return to them again later when they likely don’t resemble anything like what they originally looked like. After losing my mom, writing songs became a way to preserve memories, even painful ones from when I was a kid. Sometimes even difficult memories can sweeten and soften with time. I was exploring a lot of open tunings with this new album, and felt a bit like Dylan on Blood On The Tracks – something about playing in open D on this Martin opened up a new space and new ideas for me and reminded me of being a teenager exploring the same tunings. It’s funny how things make their way back around.” – Alex Mason
Video Credit: Bradley Pearson, Don River Music
Bob Sumner, “Motel Room”
Artist:Bob Sumner Hometown: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Song: “Motel Room” Album:Some Place to Rest Easy Release Date: September 6, 2024 Label: Fluff and Gravy Records
In Their Words: “There is a rapper/DJ named Channel Tres. Everything Channel does is cool. He drips cool. I’m a big fan of his music, his aesthetic, and his videos. He has a video for a tune called ‘Weedman.’ It’s Channel and his homies hanging out in a home ordering weed from their dealer. Throughout the video they break into dance routines. It’s chill af. It’s funny. It’s joyous. It doesn’t take itself too seriously. I wanted that for ‘Motel Room.’
“I wrangled two of my close friends, Logan Wolff & Matty Beans. I knew they’d be down. My partner Mica Kayde choreographed a dance routine for us. With my director Dana Bontempo and his partner Zara, we loaded into my pickup truck, brought Endo my tripod dog (and best friend), and spent three days on a road trip messing around. We danced in front of a motel called El Rancho in the interior of B.C. We went to the Armstrong Fair & Rodeo. We laughed a lot, mostly at ourselves, and we had the time of our lives doing it. It’s no Channel Tres, but I think we did what we set out to do. The video turned out to be a joy. It’s fun. It’s funny. It encapsulates those magical carefree years I spent with my friend. At the end of the video the character ends up alone in a motel room wantonly gazing out the window. We felt that was a part of the story we couldn’t leave out.” – Bob Sumner
Derek Vanderhorst, “Be Kind” (featuring Steve Poltz)
Artist:Derek Vanderhorst Hometown: Golden, Colorado but moving to Nice, France in September Song: “Be Kind” Album:Be Kind Release Date: July 12, 2024
In Their Words: “I wrote ‘Be Kind’ in a fun, humorous way to address serious issues that are dividing friends and family and loved ones. Racism and intolerance are making their way into our everyday experience and becoming somewhat normalized. The divisiveness is becoming so overwhelming that it’s now hard to have these serious conversations and I wanted to send the simple message of acceptance, love, and kindness – as well as [pointing out] differences are what makes life so great and worth living.
“As Gen Xers, we need to be open, aware, and embrace all the progress and change, not forgetting our generation’s great changes. We sometimes need to remember that we need change to have stagnant waters.” – Derek Vanderhorst
Track Credits: Derek Vanderhorst – Music, lyrics, guitar, vocals Steve Poltz – Vocals, guitar John Mailander – Fiddle, mandolin Frank Evans – Banjo Brook Sutton – Bass Jamie Dick – Percussion
The Doohickeys, “Rein It In Cowboy”
Artist:The Doohickeys Hometown: Los Angeles, California Song: “Rein It In Cowboy” Album:All Hat No Cattle Release Date: January 24, 2025 Label: Forty Below Records
In Their Words: “We wrote ‘Rein It In Cowboy’ after Haley got her butt grabbed in a bar… He copped a feel and we copped a song. The unsettling vibe you get from a creepy guy groping you is eerily similar to the feeling zombies evoke, which is why our video draws inspiration from our love of classic zombie films like Night of the Living Dead and Dawn of the Dead. We had a blast coming up with t-shirt pick-up lines and other visual jokes throughout the video. With the help of our friends, we crafted a visual narrative we’re truly proud of and can stand behind (and grab).” – Jack Hackett, The Doohickeys
Artist:Steven Moore & Jed Clark Hometown: Jed Clark lives in Nashville, Tennessee, originally from Searcy, Arkansas; Steven Moore lives in Saint Clairsville, Ohio, originally from Bethesda, Ohio. Song: “New Camptown Races” (by Frank Wakefield) Release Date: June 26, 2024
In Their Words: “We are very excited to share our music video of ‘New Camptown Races,’ a tune by the late Frank Wakefield (June 26, 1934 – April 26, 2024) that has become a bluegrass standard. The idea for this video began at SPBGMA 2023, when we jammed to ‘New Camptown Races’ with both of us playing it in B-flat without using capos. We laughed and agreed that we needed to record it and maybe do a video shoot of it someday. It wasn’t until a year later at SPBGMA 2024, when we met up again, that we really solidified plans to make the video happen. Our hopes were to record the video and put it out on June 26, 2024 in honor of Frank’s 90th birthday. Unfortunately, the world lost Frank two months before he turned 90, but we decided to still aim to put out the video on what would have been Frank’s 90th birthday, in his memory…” – Steven Moore
Great Aunt is an Australian folk duo composed of Megan Bird and Chelsea Allen. For a small outfit, they showcase a wide array of instruments – including mandolin, resonator guitar, acoustic guitar, double bass, percussive instruments, and vocals – with detailed harmonic arrangements.
Their music is groovy, with a foot-stomping feel as the base underlying relatable lyrics and stories, primarily drawing from Appalachian folk, bluegrass, and gospel music. Great Aunt is a duo with an impressive log of tours, festival shows, and releases that they’ve independently managed. Their most recent single, “What’s A Girl To Do Now,” covers issues around body image, identity, gender, safety, and equality.
We are eagerly awaiting the release of their debut full-length album, It’s All Downhill From Here, expected later this year. In the meantime, we are honored to highlight this incredible duo from all the way down in Australia, Great Aunt.
You just released “What’s A Girl To Do Now?” This powerful song addresses the struggles that women face around being “woman enough” – body image, identity, and more. Could you share more about the inspiration and meaning behind this song?
We started writing it when a lot of awful things were happening to women in our parliament that no man was ever held accountable for. We then spent a lot of time reflecting from our own place of privilege, as we watched First Nations women dying in [state] custody and the trans community being politicized and targeted by extreme acts of violence. We wanted to acknowledge how discrimination and acts of violence against women further intensifies at the intersections of race and gender. There’s a lot of work to do to support each other and fight for equity, where everyone feels safe, included, and as valued as any other woman. Space is infinite, there’s a place for all of us, except TERFs maybe.
You’re planning to release your debut full-length album, It’s All Downhill From Here, later this year. What has that process been like for you? What might listeners expect to hear from this much-anticipated release?
A diverse range of folk songs and a lot of personal stories to tell. We’ve been recording and mixing it ourselves with a vision to have some common themes throughout the album. Our main goal is to remain honest and sincere, and to try and translate that into the album.
As independent artists, what has the process been like for you to secure so many festival placements and shows? How do you balance the creative side of being artists with the business needs to book shows, attend conferences, and promote your music?
We are fiercely independent! The balance is often skewed towards the business side of things with the amount of touring we’ve accomplished in the last 12 months, including three U.S. tours. The admin feels never ending, to say the least, but we both divide and conquer with festival applications, booking tours, and the PR side of things. We even do our own artwork!
Now that we’ve put in the effort, we’re starting to get invited to festivals and events around the world, which is really exciting. This year we’re balancing it in favor of writing and recording, while we start booking our next U.S. tour for 2025!
What’s your ideal vision for your future?
In the short sighted future – to continue touring the U.S., Australia, and abroad.
More importantly, we want to continue to embrace and help grow this music community so we can all thrive. We know that without the help of this community we really wouldn’t have had the incredible experiences we’ve had, so we will continue to pay it forward however we can.
What is your greatest fear?
We fear for all of us. That things don’t get better and we never find our way as humans. The feeling of being unable to make an impact or calling for change and it falls on deaf ears, is the crossroads a lot of us have been at for a while now. We see this as key as western countries enter the next round of elections.
What is your current state of mind?
Burnout and worry, yet still optimistic? Right now we make sure we find pockets of joy, away from our devices and the news.
What would a “perfect day” look like for you?
Starting off with a big pot of coffee… or two. Then sitting in our pajamas together, in our home studio, writing and recording music throughout the day, maybe sneak in a video game or two. Then we head to a show. It doesn’t matter if we or someone else we admire is on the stage, but it’s a room full of friends and heartfelt stories.
Why do you create music? What’s more satisfying to you, the process or the outcome?
It’s a form of communication and expression that is a part of both of us. Creating or writing music is a constant process of growth and exploration. When we “finish” writing a song, record it down, and release it, it still continues to grow and evolve as we perform it.
Do you create music primarily for yourself or for others?
Our songs start from personal experience, a reflection of something from our lives. While we don’t write music with an audience, we do hope that someone out there listening to it feels less alone, and can hold onto that connection.
What’s the best advice you’ve ever gotten?
That a career in music is a long journey.
Who are your favorite LGBTQ+ artists and bands?
Some of the best music out there right now is queer music, and the list is forever growing. Adeem the Artist, Jessye DeSilva, Wiley Gaby, Crys Matthews, Brittany Ann Tranbaugh, Julie Nolen, and the beacon of light that is Allison Russell! Oh my!
We also adore Flamy Grant, Karen & the Sorrows, Amythyst Kiah, Jake Blount, and some local Australian favs are Charlotte Le Lievre, Little Wise, the Double Dole String Band, Kerryn Fields, Hana and Jessie-Lee’s Bad Habits, This Way North, and the Tuck Shop Ladies.
For anyone reading this who might not be out of the closet, were there any specific people, musicians, or resources that helped you find yourself as a queer individual?
I, [Megan], was lucky enough to attend this place called Rock’n’Roll High School in Melbourne. It was a place started by Stephanie Bourke, an icon in Australian music. She created a safe space for young women, non-binary, and queer folks to start bands and taught us how to navigate the industry. On reflection, I distinctly remember I felt safe to be myself and finally found a place of belonging, where my queerness or size wasn’t singled out as an issue to fix. It was a significant turning point for me, and it came at the perfect time.
I came out when I was a young teen, and was fighting to live every day. I had the support of my family, but was constantly abused at school and even the school itself told my parents I didn’t belong. It nearly had a devastating impact. Please. Hold on. Find a space that makes you feel alive. Find people and community that don’t question or challenge your identity, and let you just be, that is your family. If you haven’t found it yet, please don’t give up. When you do find these people, the feeling of liberation will overwhelm you with joy. Great Aunt loves you, we’re rooting for you.
What does it mean to you to be an LGBTQ+ musician?
Being a musician helped me process and get comfortable within my own skin when trying to understand my own identity. We’re queer women, our music is written from our perspective, and our songs are literal stories from our lives, so it’s inherently queer music. We don’t underestimate the importance of visibility and allyship. It’s critical for us that our music is a safe space for everyone.
What has it been like for you as Australian artists touring in the US?
As folk music has such deep seated roots within American culture, we are always humbled by the breadth of the music community in the U.S. and how welcoming and supportive they have been to us. We reflect on how lucky we are to be able to do this, and the listening rooms we’ve played that have been full to the brim with people we now call friends. There’s no music scene like it.
What are your release and touring plans for the next year?
There’ll be a couple of U.S. tours, that’s for sure. Once we have this album out, we’re already thinking about another release to follow shortly after, and really want to make the most of a slightly quieter tour schedule this year.
Over the nearly two-and-a-half decades since their debut, the Avett Brothers have constructed their own creative universe.
They’ve released 11 studio albums, earned a Grammy award (plus three more noms), and bounded around stages for countless tour dates and festivals the world over. May It Last, a documentary film about the influential North Carolina group, offered a glimpse at the band’s dynamic through big and small screens.
Scott has also been a working visual artist since before The Avett Brothers as a band even entered the public consciousness, earning a BFA in studio art from East Carolina University in 2000 and depicting Southern family life through paintings and sculptures that would go on to make moving exhibitions—all while he also created stunning album cover imagery (for his own band as well as the great Brandi Carlile) or provided the visuals for such epic music videos as “Head Full of Doubt / Road Full of Promise.”
Musical theater, too, has been touched by the Avetts: Their musical, Swept Away, will make its mark on Broadway this fall. But the band’s eleventh album, The Avett Brothers, feels less like a charge into new creative territory and more like a reflection on the other things that have sustained them over the years.
“There’s certainly an unsettling feeling in that shadowy twenties and thirties where you get trapped into thinking that you are what you make,” Scott told Holler Country last year. “I’m settling into a season of life where I’m welcoming the reality that I am because I am, not I am because I do.”
That realization gets top billing on The Avett Brothers. Classic ballad “2020 Regret” sounds so quintessentially Avetts that it could have easily appeared just about anywhere in their catalog, if not for the veiled references to the year. It, too, embraces the idea that a life without regrets is less about what you do than it is about the people you do it alongside.
“Life cannot be written,” read the lyrics on album standout “Never Apart.” “It can only be lived.” The song muses on a long-term relationship; it’s presumably a romantic one, but would it be so crazy to listen to it through the lens of the band and its legacy?
Most bands don’t wait twenty-plus years into their trajectory to release a self-titled album — in large part because a lot of them simply don’t last that long. It’s a banner accomplishment to forge a musical path that sustains itself in any capacity for multiple decades; it’s entirely another to push forward with nearly the exact same cast of characters you started with, still collaborating and creating with the same heart and satisfaction as before.
“It’s trust. It’s a trust that’s built in,” explained Seth to NPR last month when asked about the secret to the band’s longevity. “My trust in that Scott has my best interests in mind is something that it would never occur to me to question.” He may be referring specifically to the lifelong brotherly bond he shares with the other Avett in the group, but certainly the larger band has formed a different kind of family.
Bob Crawford, who has been playing upright bass (among other instruments) with the band since 2001, took a year off to support his daughter’s battle with cancer and Avett fans followed and supported the journey at every turn. Cellist Joe Kwon, too, has an immovable fixture in the band since 2007; crowds go wild for him at every show. “We’ve been lucky and blessed to transform with each other,” added Scott, “to change with each other and watch this happening to us.”
“Cheap Coffee,” one of the album’s underrated masterpieces, makes great fodder for the idea of a group that constantly evolves and grows together. Producer Rick Rubin, who has been with the band since their major label debut, I and Love and You, apparently cut all the lights out and had them record the song entirely in the dark. The story holds up well for a song that engages so many senses: the distant smell of coffee, the feel of an outgrown apartment, the sound of a kid imagining the very highest number they possibly can. “Didn’t know how, didn’t know how good it was,” the group sings, lyrically balancing major milestones with the types of tiny details in a memory that feel insignificant at the time, but become the stuff of nostalgia decades on.
“We’ve always had this quasi-fatalist attitude, like oh, this might be the last time we ever do it,” joked Seth in an interview between their tenth and eleventh albums. “Now we’re really like, okay, we’re probably only gonna do this one more time.” In the interview, this line reads as a joke, but fans have speculated the same thing many times, too, cobbling together similar statements from the documentary film and various other interviews to try and guess how many more albums they might get.
Regardless of the band’s plans for the future, this eleventh album embraces plenty that fans love about the past. “For the Love of a Girl” is the jump-around number you can’t wait to hear live. And “Country Kid” offers an ambling glimpse at a rural North Carolina upbringing, with a heavy twang and plenty of backwoods imagery to match.
Taken altogether, The Avett Brothers feels like a worthy prize for the five-year wait between releases. “We’re not in the same hurry we used to be,” Scott explains. “Our home lives are super busy. We’re teaching kids things.”
In a way, maybe the greater message of The Avett Brothers is that the work will always be there — the opportunity to create, to explore, to have some kind of output. So maybe it’s really not so surprising that the band would wait to release an eponymous album so many years into their career, or that they might take five years since their last full-length to release it, or that they might not make promises about the future. As their influence has grown, so have the demands for their time and the expectations around what they make — not just how much of it there should be, but what it should sound like and how it should reflect the world around them.
What a beautiful thing to ignore those voices, to be enlightened by the past without being imprisoned by it; to turn off all the lights and sing in the dark.
(Editor’s Note: Read more about our selection of the Avett Brothers as Artist of the Month, explore their discography, and check out our Essentials Playlist here.)
At whatever level you may be plugged into the online bluegrass scene, you have surely heard, seen, or scrolled into content by Bronwyn Keith-Hynes and Brenna MacMillan. These two young, talented pickers are part of a vibrant and blossoming community of traditional musicians and folk artists that includes folks like Cristina Vane, Victor Furtado, Hilary Klug, Wyatt Ellis, and many more.
What makes these creators stand apart, especially Keith-Hynes and MacMillan, is that they aren’t just shoehorning social media into their art-making and creative processes to move up Music City ladders and check abstract music industry boxes. Instead, they’ve intentionally demonstrated how powerful, engaging, and charming content can be when it’s made with art, creativity, tradition, and joyful, cooperative generation as its focal points. Instead of bending over backward to construct virality and lean into transient socials trends, they let their talent, their songs, and their communities do all the talking.
In May, Keith-Hynes released her second solo album, I Built a World, her first project to center songs and her recently-developed, impressive vocals. Drawing on musicians and pickers from her immediate circle and her main gig – Molly Tuttle & Golden Highway – as well as tapping notable country stars and bluegrass legends, the project finds Keith-Hynes at her most confident and unbothered. This is a fiddler-singer-front woman who has found her voice – literally, through work, practice, and vocal lessons as well as figuratively, not satisfied to craft a career on bowing the fiddle alone.
Later this year, MacMillan will release her debut solo album. Its lead single, “What’s to Come,” features Ronnie McCoury and is indeed a harbinger for the superb album to follow. This project, which highlights MacMillan’s prolific songwriting and features her musical community fleshing out the band, is built directly upon the successes she, Keith-Hynes, and others have found on the internet. Eschewing labels, management, or traditional roll outs, MacMillan will release the project herself, with funds raised on GoFundMe, bringing the music directly to her consumers on her own website and socials channels without “middle men.”
So, not only are MacMillan and Keith-Hynes innovating on ideas around what it means to be a side person, a career picker, and multi-hyphenate, professional traditional musicians, they’re taking all of their expertise as online brands and businesswomen to find success for themselves, on their own terms. They’re focusing on what matters, centering their communities, and making incredible, superlative music at the same time.
BGS connected with MacMillan and Keith-Hynes together via video chat to talk about their unique approaches to making albums, content, and music, while highlighting the deep and tight-knit “bluegrass influencer” circle they’ve each helped create since moving to Nashville and putting their all into bluegrass.
I wanted to start by talking about community and musical community – one of the reasons why I wanted to have you both in conversation with each other is how you each rely on, draw from, and center your musical communities in what you create. It may look like these are solo projects that you’re making, but they’re clearly not solitary projects – and they don’t really feel like vanity projects, either. from the outside looking in either. It really feels you’re making music with other people so you can make music with other people. Could you talk about your work, your solo albums, and working in your communities?
Bronwyn Keith-Hynes: Yeah, I think first and foremost, me and Brenna are good friends and we just ended up being drawn together. We both moved to Nashville around the same time and ended up doing a lot of things together and had a lot of similar interests. That’s cool to find. I haven’t found that many women who have my same interests until I moved to Nashville and then all of a sudden I felt like there was a whole bunch. It’s been really awesome to find that.
First of all, I’m just such a fan of so many people, and I wouldn’t want to make music any other way. My project was based around songs from my community, which was really special to me. It was like a little nerve wracking reaching out to friends and people I respected to be like, “Do you have a song that you’re not going to record that I could record?” But, thankfully, a lot of people did – including Brenna – and I ended up recording one of her songs. And, she sang on it and it was awesome!
I feel like I couldn’t do it alone. I know my strengths and then I know other people’s strengths and I want to make sure we’re all [drawing on our strenghts]. I don’t know if singing is my strength, but it’s something I feel passionate about and feel driven to do for whatever reason. I know the things that I want to put out in the world; I want to make sure the music I’m making has the best parts of myself, but then the best parts of everyone else who’s playing on it.
I think that folks who aren’t just straight white men in this industry, we realize from the get-go that we have to have others with us. We have to do it together. Otherwise we’re not going to go the distance. I feel that in both of your music, as well. But Brenna, I wonder what that question brings up for you, as you’re thinking about and positioning your album to release as well?
Brenna MacMillan: It’s funny, because when Bronwyn asked about songs that I had, I had like a bunch and at that time I wasn’t even thinking about [making] an album at all. I think it was maybe like a couple months later that I decided, based on my friends that kept being like, “You should record some of these songs!” And I was like, “I guess…” I wasn’t thinking about it at all whatsoever.
Then that’s another way like to get my songwriting out there, too. And why wait for someone to come to me for songs if they don’t even know that there are songs? Besides my friends, which is who I first would want to do my songs anyway. It’s funny, because obviously it’s really cool putting out your own music, but I still get more excited when “Riddle” comes on than when “What’s to Come” comes on. [Laughs] That is so cool!
Someone else’s vision for your song, it’s like the coolest thing ever to me. Because, I know what my brain comes up with so it’s not shocking, but someone else’s ideas around something that you wrote – it’s like the coolest thing ever, and I guess that’s why I love the community. I feel like community is like the word that I say way too much, but I do I love it. For Bronwyn, Cristina [Vane], Hilary [Klug], Emily, and Mallory, to some extent back in 2018, we all were moving to town around that time and then 2020 hit and I think that’s when we all got a little closer, because we were all bored and wandering around. I took a lot of walks with my friends, individually, we tried to stay across the path from each other, but I think those bonding moments brought us closer. We were like, “Let’s get coffee” or “let’s get dinner,” and then we ended up making a video or something and it all evolved into great friendship, plus people online being like, “Oh, we like to hear you guys play together!”
One of the things I love most about that whole community of content creators – you’re talking about Cristina Vane and a lot of these other folks you create with here in Nashville – it never feels like you’re trying to shoehorn bluegrass into contemporary content creation. It really seems that making bluegrass music and making roots music with your friends is the impetus, and then you made it fit into social media – instead of vice versa. Like, it’s happened organically and from a community standpoint first, and not just from “I have a social strategy. I have a five year plan.” Do you agree or disagree?
BM: Oh yeah, I agree. There’s not much strategy that’s happened in here. There’s not a lot of that going on. [Laughs]
And yet, I can tell you objectively from the outside looking in, y’all are still operating with 110% more strategy in mind than most of bluegrass. [Laughs]
BKH: I feel like Brenna and I have both talked about – correct me if I’m not saying this right, Brenna – wanting social media to serve us, rather than for us to serve social media. The end goal, for at least for both of us, is not like to become a social media star, it’s to have it serve us, to get our names and our music out to more people.
BM: Yeah! And it felt like it was very random that social media took off for me. I was just like, “Where are you guys coming from? Why do you want to hear me kick off a J.D. Crowe song like every day?” But at the same time, it has its own frustrations and that’s when me – and I think a bunch of the other girls that do this side by side with their music careers – we’re like, “We’re going to have this, but only if it makes sense for helping promote our live gigs and any projects we’re doing.” But as soon as I get nasty comments, or this, or that I’m like, “Oh, I will literally just get off of this app if it’s going to go this direction.” I just block people and then keep going.
I want an audience who will appreciate the things that I want them to appreciate. I think that I’ve trained my audience, too. Basically I shoved it in there, “You are going to listen to this slow song and try to enjoy that. And if you don’t, then I’m going to take you [out of my following]…” Because there have been some people who think that I am a content creator on there, and I’m like, “No, I play music and I took an hour out of my day and posted this video and we’re lucky that happened. Now I’m on my way to a gig and I don’t need some [negative] comment.” But you could come to a live gig and request a song!
Brenna, one of the things I love about your upcoming album and the messaging around it is that you’re really doing a direct-to-consumer business model and roll out. You’re being like, “Y’all can come to me. You already know how to find me, so this is where you can find the music, too.” I think it’s amazing and again, it’s the cutting edge of what the future of bluegrass will be while it’s also so fucking trad. It’s like back in the day, when bluegrass music required taking the car battery out of the car to play a show in the high school auditorium and then putting the battery back in to drive to the next high school auditorium.
It’s like you’re doing that in the 21st century. You’re being a DIY bluegrass musician, but in 2024. Can you talk a little bit about the direct to consumer model you’re using with your album roll out?
BM: I was like, I need to build a website so that there’s everything in one place – I remember why I did it, too, because there are a bunch of fake accounts. I knew I needed something out there to be authentic and to have all of my official links. That was literally my number one goal with the website. So now, here’s the link to my website, you can find my YouTube channel, my Facebook, my Instagram, my TikTok from there. And you’re going to know you’re in the right place. I’ve basically just started to try to push everything to my website and go from there to everything else, even if it’s taking you back to Instagram. Because [the website is] where everything’s going to happen, so that you know that it’s me instead of some person scamming you. I guess with that in mind, I started trying to link everything, like in my stories, when I’m talking about anything coming up, I just say, “Go to my website!”
Bronwyn, I wanted to ask you again about community and about bringing your circle, your scene into your album. I love all of the features on your album and I also love that it doesn’t just feel like you’re reaching for a Collaborative Recording of the Year nomination.
[All laugh]
But I wanted to know how it felt to you, as you were thinking about who you wanted to have on the record and why you wanted to have them on the record?
BKH: I’m glad to hear you say that it feels like it’s in service of the music, because that was definitely my intent. It was the funnest part of [recording the album], for me. I did kind of make those decisions after the tracks were done and I’d done my vocals. I just didn’t know how it was going to turn out until I heard it. Then I would brainstorm with Brent [Truitt], and Jason [Carter], and whoever about who to get on it. Dudley Connell was somebody I was really excited about and I’d never met him. I didn’t know him. Someone just gave me his number, I called him up and left him a nervous voicemail. But yeah, he turned out to be the sweetest guy ever – and he’s a bluegrass hero, I love all those Johnson Mountain Boys records.
It’s crazy especially being a new singer, I haven’t heard my voice recorded much ever. Then to hear my voice with all these other voices that I know and I’ve heard a lot – to hear like that combination for the first time – it was like very surreal!
What was it like working with Dierks [Bentley]? We all know his bluegrass pedigree and his connections to the Station Inn and to the McCourys and that he’s always had one foot so solidly in bluegrass, but y’all would have gotten to know him and got to spend some time with him on the road with Molly Tuttle & Golden Highway, too. I wondered how how that conversation happened and also what it felt like to you to have someone who has gold records and platinum records collaborating with you on your record?
BKH: I grew with his Up On The Ridge album, it was literally one of the first bluegrass albums I heard around my college years. I was obsessed with it and I thought it was so cool. It got me into listening to the more trad stuff, but I’d always loved his music and then being Jason [Carter’s] partner, and Jason and he were friends even before he was famous. So they’ve been friends from the get go.
I’d met him a few times through Jason and then again when we were on tour [opening for him], that was cool. ‘Cause I felt like we could meet [more as peers], not just because I’m somebody’s partner. But now, this is my gig and this is your gig. And you’re asking us to sit in every night. I felt a little bit more comfortable to make that ask. He just came into Brent’s studio one day and tracked it in under an hour. He’s great! Very quick.
Brenna, talk to me a little bit and if you have features on your upcoming album – and if you can’t talk about them yet, that’s totally fine.
BM: I know, I was trying to think of what I should say – I don’t know, I’m the one in charge! But let me check, I don’t know if Brenna wants to tell all that yet. [Laughs]
At the very least, we can talk about Ronnie [McCoury] and “What’s to Come.” Ronnie’s one of my favorites. Talk a bit about, again, bringing in community and bringing in the scene that already surrounds you.
BM: The core band in the studio was [Mike] Bub on bass and Jake Stargel on guitar. Me, I played banjo on four or five of the tracks, but I have been writing a lot on clawhammer lately and I know that I’m not good at it, so I had Frank Evans come in for those and then I had Cory [Walker] play on a couple very last minute. I was thinking, it’s just going to be better if he does it.
When the special guests ideas popped in my brain, I was thinking, “Do I want special guests to be like my friends, my age, or like people that I really are like heroes of mine? Is this the time to ask them? I don’t know.” Nobody knows who I am, but that’s okay. I had met Ronnie a handful of times in kind of settings where it was like, “I’m here with so and so” and I’m just a little curmudgeon. [Laughs]
“What’s to Come,” it’s like a reflective life song. I know that I sound like a small baby when I sing, and I was thinking of someone with an older sounding voice. Like wanting ancient, lonesome vibes so that there could be old and young together, pondering about life. If you’re young or if you’re old, you still ask all the same questions about life.
Also, [Ronnie’s] gritty mandolin playing. I love it so much. Jarrod Walker played on most of the core mandolin stuff, but he happened to be out of the country that session. I was like, this is perfect! But it’s funny, because I didn’t even know if Ronnie was going to bring his mandolin! [Laughs]
To wrap up, here’s a question I had for both of you, because you’re both musical shape shifters. You move in and out of musical contexts so easily; you’re both side people, you’re both front people, you’re both social media brands. How do you maintain your senses of self?
BKH: I feel like I can’t get away from myself! I don’t feel like I ever even think about that. The only way I’ve struggled with that a little bit, or thought about that more, is doing the solo projects. That’s where I’m like, “Wow. OK. What would Bronwyn do next?” But I think I know what I like and I know what I want to do. I’m just like, “How am I going to do that? I need to figure that out.
BM: I think similarly, I don’t really think about it that much. I think I know what I like, too. And I know what I don’t like. From the get go, I’ve very much just been myself online. I come home from the lab job and do a video with dark circles [under my eyes] and grunge and smelling like hemp trash. That’s what I established from the beginning. So now, I feel comfortable being myself.
Pretty much everything has been my own ideas and, it’s funny, because ten of my eleven songs are originals on the album, three of which are co writes, but hearing it come to life in the studio with other people, it still ended up being what I thought it should be. Which is weird, because there’s no way that I could bring some of these musicians into the studio who are eons beyond what I could imagine, but they knew exactly what the track needed. It does sound like me still and what my vision would have been if I had expressed it [all myself].
BKH: I feel like I’m like more myself these days than I’ve ever been. I feel like for a while, starting out in bluegrass, I had a lot of ideas of what a woman in bluegrass needed to look like, or be, or act like. In the last couple years, maybe inspired by being with Molly in Golden Highway, I feel like I’ve been able to let a lot of that stuff go – about how I should dress and whatever. Now, I embrace the things I actually like.
Photo Credit: Brenna MacMillan by Sophie Clark; Bronwyn Keith-Hynes by Alexa King Stone.
Artist:The Doohickeys Hometown: Los Angeles, California Song: “Rein It In Cowboy” Album:All Hat No Cattle Release Date: January 24, 2025 Label: Forty Below Records
In Their Words: “We wrote ‘Rein It In Cowboy’ after Haley got her butt grabbed in a bar… He copped a feel and we copped a song. The unsettling vibe you get from a creepy guy groping you is eerily similar to the feeling zombies evoke, which is why our video draws inspiration from our love of classic zombie films like Night of the Living Dead and Dawn of the Dead. We had a blast coming up with t-shirt pick-up lines and other visual jokes throughout the video. With the help of our friends, we crafted a visual narrative we’re truly proud of and can stand behind (and grab).” – Jack Hackett, The Doohickeys
Track Credits: Produced and Engineered by Eric Corne. Eugene Edwards – Lead guitar Hayley Orrantia – Back-up vocals Haley Brown – Vocals Jack Hackett – Rhythm guitar Adam Arcos – Bass Aubrey Richmond – Fiddle Jordan Bush – Pedal steel Matt Tecu – Drums
Video Credits: Chris Beyrooty – Director, producer Jack Hackett – Director, producer Louise Sylvester – Producer Haley Brown – Producer Michael Greenwood – Director of Photography
To welcome you to the end of the week, we’ve got a slate of superlative premieres from across the roots music landscape.
Below, find new tracks from singer-songwriters – Maya de Vitry, who sings a song from her upcoming co-written with Caitlin Canty, as well as Lucy Isabel bringing “A Hero’s Welcome.” We’ve also got a few Western North Carolinians in our round-up, including bluegrass mandolinist Darren Nicholson playing a song about a true mountain man, John Colter, and Amanda Anne Platt & the Honeycutters offering “Big Year.”
Plus, guitarist Jacob Johnson is joined by Willie Nelson & Family harmonica player Mickey Raphael on an acoustic Allman Brothers cover and Tommy Emmanuel pays tribute to Chet Atkins’ 100th birthday with a video BGS premiered earlier this week.
It’s all right here on BGS – and You Gotta Hear This!
Maya de Vitry, “Odds of Getting Even”
Artist:Maya de Vitry Hometown: Lancaster, Pennsylvania Song: “Odds of Getting Even” Album:The Only Moment Release Date: July 12th, 2024 Label: Mad Maker Studio
In Their Words: “I wrote ‘Odds of Getting Even’ with my dear friend Caitlin Canty at a kitchen table in Nashville, several years ago. I was borrowing a friend’s snare drum at the time and having so much fun just grooving on that drum and singing. We were really moved by an article laying on my table, it was about the late Sharon Jones. Her story is powerful – her devotion to music in spite of so many years of rejection and really outright dismissal by the music industry – and then her battle with cancer, and performing in the midst of treatment… Against so many odds, she persisted in making her music. And singing was the only thing that could take her pain away.
“The band Della Mae made the first recording of this song on their 2020 Headlight album. It’s a real honor and thrill to hear another band bring your song to life. Then, Caitlin recorded her own version on Quiet Flame, which came out last summer. One of the things I love most about making records is making a collection of songs that feel like they magnetically want to live alongside each other, like companion plants or something – and this one just absolutely belongs in the song garden of The Only Moment. And to hear Phoebe Hunt on harmony vocals… well I just think Phoebe is an absolute legend. I’m so lucky to get to sing with her.” – Maya de Vitry
Track Credits: Maya de Vitry – Vocals, acoustic guitar, synth Phoebe Hunt – Harmony vocals Anthony da Costa – Electric guitar Ethan Jodziewicz – Bowed upright bass Dominic Billett – Drums
Lucy Isabel, “A Hero’s Welcome”
Artist:Lucy Isabel Hometown: Nashville, Tennessee Song: “A Hero’s Welcome” Album:All The Light Release Date: June 28, 2024 (single); October 11, 2024 (album)
In Their Words: “‘A Hero’s Welcome’ is the only song on the album that wasn’t written specifically for the album. I taught myself to play guitar in college and started writing music pretty much right away. ‘A Hero’s Welcome’ was the first song that I ever felt proud of writing; I felt like I had found my voice. While I was in the process of writing the bulk of this album, I hung out with a college friend who reminded me of ‘A Hero’s Welcome.’ I suddenly realized that it was a perfect fit for All The Light and I added it to the track list. It’s been really fun to revisit this song that I wrote as a 21-year-old and hear how it’s transformed through the production process.” – Lucy Isabel
Track Credits: Written by Lucy Isabel Fortune-Cabrera. Produced/mixed by Jared Anderson. Mastered by Preston Cochran. Lucy Isabel – Vocals, BGVs Jared Anderson – Guitar, bass, pianos, percussion Andy Ellison – Pedal Steel
Jacob Johnson, “Jessica” featuring Mickey Raphael
Artist:Jacob Johnson Hometown: Greenville, SC Song: “Jessica” feat. Mickey Raphael Release Date: June 21, 2024
In Their Words: “It’s an unwritten rule for musicians that if your darlin’ (that’s how we say “significant other” or “partner” in the South) is named after a famous song, you must learn the song and you must use it to serenade them. Unfortunately, my wife was named after a 7-minute Allman Brothers jam. Eventually, I got serious and put together a solo/acoustic version of ‘Jessica’ that I later played as she danced with her dad at our wedding reception on May 31, 2019. It’s been knocking around in my head since then and earlier this year I decided it was time to flesh out the arrangement with some collaborators.
“Jack Ryan and Stephen Campbell from the dangerously hot Marcus King Band laid down a groovy, breathing foundation on drums and bass respectively, and Aaron Bowen supplied tasty keyboard lines throughout. In addition to the main melody, I played the second solo on my trusty Takamine acoustic guitar, but I knew I wanted to feature another special guest for the first solo section. I was completely blown away when my first choice, Mickey Raphael, legendary harmonica player for Willie Nelson and Family, agreed to participate. Mickey has played on some of my favorite albums of all time, and his lyrical, melodic style was just what the track was asking for. Having part of his magic on one of my tracks has been on my musical bucket list for many years.
“Of course, this entire project was created with lots of love and respect for its composer, the great Dickey Betts, who we lost not long after production was completed. If you know Southern music, you know he was one of the greats. Though I never had the opportunity to meet the man, I hope that my arrangement and attention to the details of this composition can honor his legacy in some small way.” – Jacob Johnson
Track Credits: Jacob Johnson – Guitars Mickey Raphael – Harmonica Jack Ryan – Drums Stephen Campbell – Bass Aaron Bowen – Keyboards Produced by Jacob Johnson. Recorded by Shane Nelson at Asaph Studios & Mike McCarthy in Jack Ryan’s Garage. Mixed by Shane Nelson at Asaph Studios, Greenville, South Carolina. Mastered by Anna Frick at Ally Sound.
Darren Nicholson, “Big Sky”
Artist:Darren Nicholson Hometown: Canton, North Carolina Song: “Big Sky” Release Date: June 21, 2024 Label: Mountain Home Music Company
In Their Words: “This is one of my favorite cuts of my entire recording career. I feel there’s a special spirit in the song and the way it turned out. It’s based on the true story of early American explorer, John Colter. He was a member of the Lewis and Clark Expedition and became the first known person of European descent to enter the region which became Yellowstone National Park. There’s several fascinating periods of his life and career. I became aware of him through a fabulous book about his survival and harrowing adventures called Colter’s Run. He was one of the first true mountain men. This was the inspiration for the song when Charles Humphrey and myself set out to write it. I also think it would make a great film. I feel the musicians knocked it out of the park in regard to capturing the mood and old-time essence. Hope you enjoy!” – Darren Nicholson
Track Credits: Darren Nicholson – Mandolin, octave mandolin, lead vocal, harmony vocal Tony Creasman – Drums Kristin Scott Benson – Banjo Zach Smith – Upright bass; Colby Laney – Acoustic guitar Deanie Richardson – Fiddle David Johnson – Dobro Kevin Sluder – Harmony vocal Jennifer Nicholson – Harmony vocal
Amanda Anne Platt & the Honeycutters, “Big Year”
Artist: Amanda Anne Platt & The Honeycutters Hometown: Asheville, North Carolina Song: “Big Year” Album:The Ones That Stay Release Date: August 9, 2024 Label: Mule Kick Records
In Their Words:“I wrote the first line of this song in 2018, after what felt like a really big year. I would revisit it from time to time, trying to find the rest of the words. And while I was doing that, the years just kept getting bigger and bigger. Good stuff, bad stuff, life just gets overwhelming at times. And of course there was a global pandemic. I’m still waiting on a smaller year, but maybe I’m also learning how to ride the wave a little better.” – Amanda Anne Platt
Track Credits: Amanda Anne Platt – Acoustic guitar, lead vocal Matt Smith – Dobro Rick Cooper – Electric guitar, vocal harmony Kevin Williams – Piano, vocal harmony Evan Martin – Bass, drums, percussion, vocal harmony
Produced by Scott McMicken and Greg Cartwright, FrogHouse Productions, and Amanda Anne Platt.
In Their Words: “The one and only Chet Atkins would be celebrating his 100th year if he were still here in body. We miss him. We love his playing, we remember all the great lessons and wisdom he handed out freely to us. We always use his example as the one written in stone. My fellow CGPs, John Knowles and Steve Wariner, have their own experiences and memories to share, and they have lived a different life to me. Yet, because of our love for Chet’s music, we are forever joined, like family…” – Tommy Emmanuel
“Nobody tells it like it is,” Anna Tivel sings on “Disposable Camera,” the first single from her new album, Living Thing. The song radiates with the joy and pain of reality, climaxing with the lines:
That big black train is rolling And that deep down scream is growing A hurricane come howling A shot heard from the mountain A blessing and a burden I swear this will be worth it…
Which are followed by a melodic and cathartic yell. I don’t know how I first came across Tivel’s music, but when I found the song “Blue World,” I got stuck on it. I listened to it over and over, trying to take in every aspect of it, break it into pieces, open it up like a watch so that I could understand how this perfect song ticked. It is still the most beautiful meditation on dying that I’ve ever heard. “You come to the heavy gate and you open it all alone…” is a line I think about often. To me, it sounded like she herself was telling it like it is.
A few weeks after discovering “Blue World,” I was on tour with Kris Drever, who is one of my favorite folk musicians from Scotland. We were trading new music discoveries and I played him that song, after which he became obsessed with it. We traveled around listening to “Blue World” and talking about death for the rest of the tour. Giving someone a new song to love is a special kind of transaction. It’s a gift for the new listener, but also a point of pride to have found something that someone else also finds meaning in – especially when the recipient of said gift is a musician you admire. New song discoveries are an unmatchable currency, a communication beyond words.
“Blue World” sent me on a journey through Tivel’s catalogue, with hours spent listening to Small Believer, The Question, and Outsiders, before the release of her latest record on March 31. With Tivel’s latest collection, I have to come to the conclusion that someone does tell it like it is and that person is Anna Tivel. I spoke with her over the phone for BGS about the inspiration behind her songs and the unique circumstances that led to her production choices on Living Thing.
I’ve been a fan of your work for a long time and I’m curious to know what feels new and different about this record than your past work?
Anna Tivel: I think there are two main things. I’ve worked with Shane Leonard before [who produced Outsiders and The Question], but this is the deepest collaboration we’ve ever done. There is so much of his heart and his sonic experimentation in these songs.
We made this squarely in the pandemic years, so there was no way to call upon a band for live tracking. It was just me and him in his studio. He went insane trying all kinds of sounds, playing all different instruments, and I scribbled extra verses on napkins as I heard what he was coming up with. We worked all day, every day and I slept on his couch for a month. I tried to say yes to everything and I learned so much. I really feel like the sounds feel different than what we’ve worked on before.
The other thing is that going through that year, I was craving soaring choruses… more melody and rise and rhythmic happenings that I normally do. Maybe it was a result of just sitting and looking at the same window for so long. I usually write long and dark monotonous stories with no chorus at all, but I think I craved a little more hope and joy. In general I feel like less people died on this album than usually die my albums… it’s still melancholy as fuck though.
Knowing that these songs were written and recorded during that very existential time, and now that they are being released into a different time, do these songs feel different to you than they once did?
Yeah, it’s interesting, the whole process of putting out a record. I really got stuck in the machine for a little while so it took quite a long time for this album to come out.
They are older songs now in my soul, but the project still feels really fresh. I think because Shane drew them into this more alive, sonic world. It was really exciting and fun to explore joy and rhythm and movement, especially in that isolated time. It felt good to have some hope and just wiggle around and try to feel the good parts of being a human.
So coming back to it now, it feels new and exciting to take them out on the road with a band. It’s making me realize it’s fun to have some songs that we can really move into, rather than building up from the ground.
One of my favorite tracks from your new record is “Desperation” – “Real life is far from fair, you tried and tried and got nowhere/ It’s like somebody rigged the whole damn thing/ Bloody knuckles, empty hands, you want to fight, but all you ever had/ Is desperation.” Can you tell me a little about what led to that song?
I think that one came out of the heart of that pandemic time, watching people, and having an awareness of how close many folks are to the edge, simultaneously knowing how the people pulling the strings aren’t the ones close to the edge.
Maybe your kid gets sick, and you miss work, and then that’s that, you’re evicted, and into the car. You don’t choose what you’re born into and if you’re born with the short end of the stick, it’s so hard to imagine anything but that reality.
You can see getting stuck, because that imagination isn’t generously shared by the people that own it. But if people that are living in a different world reach out to help it can really change the situation. Sometimes that means helping people believe that a different reality is possible. You have to go into your mind to create what you need. It’s sort of the same idea as representation, in the sense that if you’ve seen people that feel like you in very different situations than you, you can imagine yourself into a different situation.
I want to work on making that imagination more widely available.
That’s an amazing point, and a great one to keep in mind especially for artists. Artists can and have played that role for people, I believe. Does this same idea carry through for the song, “Disposable Camera?”
I like songwriting because you’re sort of always looking inward… You think you’re reflecting the world, but so much of yourself gets in there and the things that you’re learning into. A lot of this album is about getting free, getting loose of the way that you’ve taken in that it “should be,” the way that you should express yourself or the way you should move…
A lot of friends in the pandemic were having kids or trying to have kids and I was thinking about how, when we were all born, our parents were these people. [I was] realizing that everyone making babies has no idea what is going [to happen] and it’s kind of beautiful that it’s this big wheel of nobody knowing what they’re doing. Everyone is kinda hoping that someone else will be like “this is what it is,” but maybe the not knowing is actually a freedom. It feels scary to think you’re supposed to be certain, but you aren’t yet. The freedom is that nobody actually is certain and that’s not going to change.
I was listening to your song “Kindness of a Liar” and thinking about how important escapism was in 2020 and 2021. How badly I needed books and TV shows to get lost in so that I could come back to the present and have energy to cope with what was happening. Is that what this song is about to you?
In this batch of songs I was thinking a lot about what is truth, what is honest, what is listening, and what is being able to have nuance in all of those realms. You don’t just stay certain. To be able to move and shift and read situations and try to be learning in real time, messily, is very different from saying, “This is a fact and I’m going to hit everyone over the head with it until I’m proven wrong, and then I’m going to pretend I never said it.”
To try and tell stories to one another that are compassionate and messy – sometimes telling a story that might not be true is the most gentle and kind thing you can do while something hard is happening.
I think it’s about recognizing how much we crave each other’s stories and being really aware of how we paint the world for each other. The more artfully and more compassionately we tell each other’s stories the more we connect, and it’s not about trying to prove our point.
The most loving thing you can do is to share your mind and heart with people in the most nuanced way. And maybe there’s some fiction and lore in that.
If you didn’t work in music, what would you do instead?
I would work in construction or be a lawyer or a therapist.
If you were a color, what shade would you be – and why?
I would be green – green represents plants and herbs that heal us. I’d like to be the person that saves a person’s day
What would a perfect day as an artist and creator look like to you?
Cooking and having good healthy meal, editing projects I produce for friends, playing soccer with friends, having a cocktail in a dive bar watching a local band perform.
What was the first moment that you knew you wanted to be a musician?
It was when I was like 12, I went to this school that had a choir and when I listened to them sing, it was amazing then I knew I have to try singing. That’s where singing starts for me, but wanting to be a musician was never a plan, I just went with the flow of life and ended up being one… none of my friends even believe I sing.
Which elements of nature do you spend the most time with and how do those impact your work?
Gardening and soccer always reminds me that life is not all about just work, it calms my mind; when I get back to work I feel less pressured by the whole work system and pace.
Photo Credit: Jim Herrington
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